Global politics

[BeeBop]

I've moved a discussion which started on another thread over here. It started out like this:
I said

HiTech,
You got my attention long ago, with that arrogant and abrasive sig. you are wearing. With attitudes like that, it is no wonder Kim Jeong Il launches missiles on July 4th. ;-)

Papabravo replied

Let's be clear. Kim launches missiles anytime he feels like it for two reasons. He's a lunatic and there is nobody who can say no. He absolutely does not care what we think.

Quote:
Kim launches missiles anytime he feels like it for two reasons.
I don't think Kim JI is anything to worry about. I think, also, that he is very concerned with what others, especially the US thinks. I think this latest launch was to get himself back in the limelight, which I think he loves. I also know that he is a big fan of American movies, but that he is even more in love with himself.
Also, I am familiar with the Korean personality, which is very oppositional, and 'in your face.' People here seem to love bumping into each other, and often it is hard to tell if they are really angry, or just being expressive.
I live in 'the kill box.' From the information I got when I visited the DMZ, the North could rain down 26,000 rounds per minute on us. The funny thing is that I have never felt so safe in my life.

I'm not worried. Miscalculation is far easier and far more justifiable if your adversary is a lunatic. We could easily pulverize the Korean Peninsula and say "oops..we're sorry we thought Kim was attacking us. You mean he was just showing off. Too bad." The collateral damage would be horrific for Japan, South Korea, China, and Russia. It would probaly poison the atmosphere and damage the environment of the entire planet. We've been playing the game of Global Thermonuclear War for 60 years and I think the newcomers have a great deal to learn.

There is probably an ancient saying to the effect that "If you intend to wave a weapon around it really should work and not fizzle into the sea"

Last edited by Papabravo : Yesterday at 03:47 PM.

Papabravo,
While I agree with you on these points, I'm just a bit reluctant to reply, because it is precisely this, which I found disgusting in HiTech's sig. This board has been wonderfully free of politics. When I start reading the news, often I become quite depressed, and angry. I prefer to focus my mind on electronics, which makes me happy. I get depressed from reading the news, because then, I start to believe that civilization, and everything we have done, is nothing more than a lie. This leads to a misanthropic state, where I begin to believe that we are not only doomed to destruct, but that we deserve to be obliterated.

Secure people do not brag about their strength, intelligence, or power. The problem is that there are far too few of these people, and far too many of the other. Is kindness ever really respected? It seems that most humans only respect those who abuse them, and walk on those who are kind to them.

That said, I think I'm stuck on an age old philosophical question which produces pain, so I'm going back to my project.

Regards

Yes indeed, life goes on despite the insanity and the craziness that surrounds us. The outside world touches our professional lives just as our professional lives touch back. Bad things tend to happen when good people remain silent. I did not mean to imply in the previous post that I thought it was a good idea to initiate a nuclear exchange. What generations of Soviet and American leaders feared more than anything was a miscalculation or a mistake leading to unintended consequences. In that case, at least, both sides believed that the other side was a rational actor.

The world now has at least two examples of adversaries that are not motivated by rational considerations. This situation is far more dangerous than the one that scared me from the time I was five years old living in Dayton, OH next door to Wright Patterson AFB. We had enormous targets painted on our foreheads. When Nikita Kruschev pounded his shoe on the table at the UN in 1964 and said "we will bury you!" it was a defining moment for the members of my generation. The situation today is stangely similar, only the names have changed.

Your description of the part of Korean culture involving confrontation and brinksmanship is deeply disturbing. How does a player with that mindset avoid provoking a dispropotionate response?

I'm quite enjoying having someone to discuss this with, however I don't want to be anymore of a thread jacker than I have already been, therefore I'm going to copy our conversation thus far, to a new thread. I will call it global politics.
I hope we can continue there.

I just hope this is OK with the mods!

I think we are close in age; I grew up with the same fears as you, but didn't live next to an airforce base. Instead, there was a radar dish a few miles from my house. The effect was the same, but perhaps a bit less intense.

I must agree that bad things do happen when 'good people' remain silent. (A few months back, I read about a passenger on an Edmonton bus, who was beaten to death. No one on the bus said anything, I suppose because of fear.) As I understand it, this was also the situation in the 1930s in Europe. It isn't hard to find examples.

OK, back to the point:

In that case, at least, both sides believed that the other side was a rational actor.

Yes, and I believe they were both correct, at least to a large extent.

The world now has at least two examples of adversaries that are not motivated by rational considerations.

Your description of the part of Korean culture involving confrontation and brinksmanship is deeply disturbing.

That is part of what makes living here a challenge! All too often, there seems to be a lack of reason, and logic, which is replaced by raw emotion. Always, I end up questioning whether it is the filter of my own ethnocentricity. More than I ever have in my life, I now realize how much I value the ability to exert reason over passion. I believe it is that, which makes us civilized.

There have been many times here where I have become very uncomfortable because of the lack of reason. One of the first, I suppose was back when the news of a Nuclear North first hit. Some of the rhetoric was terrifying, and I'm sure, brought back the fears and memories of youth.

The next was when the two young girls were run over by the half track, or tank, I'm not really sure what it was. There is no doubt it was a very loud machine, and the question of whether it was a suicide existed only in the minds of foreigners. To the locals it was murder, plain and simple. For the next year, or more, one could see graphic posters of the bodies everywhere, mixed with anti American slogans.
As the cries of Americans go home became louder, my conviction that if the US military pulled out, so would I! Eventually, things cooled off, and I learned about 'tribal justice.' (scary thought)

More recently, a young Canadian who had visited here, posted advice on 'how to bed a Korean woman.' This was answered by Koreans who started a denial of service attack on that server. For the next several months, all Canadians were just 'disease infested drug dealers.' They even defaced the memorial to Canadians who died here in the late forties and early fifties. (A relative of mine, included.)

I could go on, with examples of 'sweeping generalizations." but this is getting long!

Ambassadors have some of the most difficult work on the planet. It is their job to feel out the leaders of countries which do not enjoy the same level of reason and logic which we do.

So my answer, is that such a mindset is lacking the ability, and experience, to worry about the results, and or consequences of their outburst.

OK, too much, and I'm going to just post this and come back later.

 

[Papabravo]

A remarkably well reconstructed post and reasoned argument. As individuals and practitioners of our art we have the power to decide if our knowledge and skills will be used for good or for ill. I'm pleased to say that most members of this forum take a dim view of electronics for weapons or devices that can inflict pain and injury. We encourage the misguided souls who would use the infliction of pain or distress on their fellow creatures to direct their energies in more suitable directions.

What would we do if a member of the state security service broke down our door in the middle of the night, put a gun to our heads, and took us to a giant laboratory where we were ordered to work on projects of interest to the state. The answer is: "I don't know". In the USA it seems a far fetched sceneario. In other countries, it may be. In some countries it is a virtual certainty.

Russian professionals consigned to the Gulag developed remarkable coping strategies. They showed just enough progress to keep their taskmasters happy, but never enough progress to make effective breakthroughs. Dictators should ponder the real effectivness of fear and coercion. Which brings us full circle to the missles. It is my belief that the NK missle engineers are playing a dangerous and heroic game of giving KJI just enough to keep from being publically executed, but not enough to be a true threat to the planet.

 

[BeeBop]

Excellent argument, and quite hopeful and positive, I might add.

I'm pleased to say that most members of this forum take a dim view of electronics for weapons or devices that can inflict pain and injury.

I have seen this in action here. It always seem as though those who pursue such devices are quite juvenile, so I applaud the way they have been mentored here.

I suspect you are correct, at least to a high degree, on the motivation of engineers in NK. The path to survival in the 'peoples republic,' seems to be military service. I think this is much the same as it was in the Soviet model, and that would explain the very large number of troops. (More than one million, and almost five million reservists.) That fear is the motivation can also be backed by the number of escape attempts from the North.

I am also wondering how large of role the 'mob,' and the strangle-hold of tradition play out in the politic. The more reasonable Western People are rightfully skeptical of the 'good old days,' and have had few problems destroying the past, in order to innovate. This could be attributed to the shift of emphasis from society at large, to the individual, and is perhaps best exemplified by the good old USA. The migration of intelligencia due both to Stalin and Hitler, to the US created a powerful and innovative 'think tank' in the 'New World.' The East, however, has a much stronger affinity for what has worked in the past.

I think Asians are torn between their love for hi-tech and their programmed allegiance to the past. Now, just as an example, it was only in the last few months that Korea decided to stop teaching the idea of homogeneity in the schools. Many Koreans believe that they are the only pure race on earth, and because of that, are superior to all other people. They 'don't mix the blood.' I have seen examples of this when in public with a Korean Woman. It is generally the older people, who give cold stares, and even comments directed at the woman, for being with a foreigner. I have also heard (second-hand, albeit) of adults bragging about killing babies of mixed blood in the period following the ceasefire in '52. Thus the mob, keeps the status quo.

At the same time, they love what toys the West has (who wouldn't?) and this affinity conflicts with what they are taught - Westerners are greedy and lazy. I cannot recall ever being treated badly by a person wearing HanBok (traditional dress.) Many times, however, I receive rudeness by a middle aged person wearing Levis and drinking a Starbucks coffee. I reason that the conflict between what they love, and what they have been taught, generates anger toward themselves for their 'transgression.' This anger is focused outward, which seems common for most humans. There are, however, a few forward thinkers.

Just as Yamamoto (Koreans would hate me for using a Japanese example, for they all seem to hate the Japanese) who was educated at Harvard, cautioned his officers before they attacked Pearl Harbor, the Americans were not, as they were taught, lazy and week, but a formidable force to be reckoned with. Some forward thinking Koreans realize that if they do not change and become more global, their nation will not survive. Thus there is a constant push for equality, but that push, as it slides down the social ladder, is misconstrued.

When we, in the West play a game, we have the rules, which make it fair, and one abiding by the rules can feel good about winning the game. It is the play which entertains us, and our emphasis is on how we play. In Korea, however, the totality is on winning, rather than play. The rules, then, become a path to losing, and lying or cheating is acceptable and common, especially if it will save face. This behavior is epitomized not only by the Chebols (family owned businesses) but seems to extend even to scientific endeavor. (An apple box can very nicely hold one hundred million won, and this is a common business, academic, and political tool.)

Now, this all applies to the South, and the North is even more opaque than the South, so I'm not sure how or if any of it may apply. My reasoning, however, has been, that some motivation for weapon development can be attributed to this mass inferiority complex and the struggle for equality that it has brought about.

I am glad for your response, however. It does account for the latest attempt 'fizzling out,' and landing in the ocean, which I viewed as a planned outcome, designed only as a means to attract attention.

What is interesting, and much less opaque, is the role that China is playing. I don't trust the media, and wonder how correct the information we get on this 'Big Daddy' actually is. I wonder if they REALLY want to see a nuclear free peninsula.

 

[Helloween]

Edit:
I am not going to get involved in political discussions on a technical forum.
I am not going to get involved in political discussions on a technical forum.
I am not going to get involved in political discussions on a technical forum.
I am not going to get involved in political discussions on a technical forum.
I am not going to get involved in political discussions on a technical forum.

 

[Papabravo]

To my everlasting regret I spent the bulk of my career focused on developing my technical skills at the expense of social and political skills. I regret this because it allowed people and companies to take advantage of me. I didn't have a mentor to guide me and I had to learn some hard lessons. It is knowledge of other disciplines that will serve you well in a technical career. To listen, analyze, and debate is something you learn by prctice. What better place to practice those skills than a semi-anonymous forum where a face to face meeting would be unlikely and we can express ourselves in relative comfort.

 

[Helloween]

To my everlasting regret I spent the bulk of my career focused on developing my technical skills at the expense of social and political skills. I regret this because it allowed people and companies to take advantage of me. I didn't have a mentor to guide me and I had to learn some hard lessons. It is knowledge of other disciplines that will serve you well in a technical career. To listen, analyze, and debate is something you learn by prctice. What better place to practice those skills than a semi-anonymous forum where a face to face meeting would be unlikely and we can express ourselves in relative comfort.

It's not that I don't think these things are interesting and vital. I do, and I enjoy the process... too much! It's just that I would prefer to leave my political debating to other forums where I might not alienate someone whose very help I might need.

Cheers.

 

[Jay.slovak]

Just a small notification: https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/the-forum-rules-read-carefully.101939/.

 

[BeeBop]

Sorry Jay!
Regards,
Robert

 

[JimB]

I thought that it was a pretty good discussion.
JimB

 

[HiTech]

Jay,

I read post #2 in the link you posted, however that seems to contradict the very words in the index used to describe the **** Chat Forum:

Relax for a bit and have a general conversation (off topic is allowed!) with other members. Please be polite and respect your fellow members.

I would interpret that as being allowed to discuss politics or other controversial issues PROVIDED, all respondents can remain civil and not undermine the discussions with personal attacks and flames. Your thoughts?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

If any ONE of the moderators feels a post is offensive he can edit it, delete it, edit or delete the offenders signature, or ban the offender - or any combination. We don't vote on it, any moderator is free to moderate as he wishes - almost all the banned users here though have been banned by ME!.

This isn't because I'm particularly 'nasty' (or perhaps it is?), but because I'm probably on-line more, and most banned users are spammers (I banned one earlier today again).

 

[Jay.slovak]

HiTech: "No Politic arguing" really doesn't belog here, but I have nothing against 'civilised' discussion.

That's why my previous post was just a notification.

 

[BeeBop]

An argument is an intelligent, reasoned exchange, best done without emotion. The problem with a quarrel, is that it disrupts a good argument.
I can argue well with men, but why is it that arguments with women often turn to quarrels?

This isn't because I'm particularly 'nasty' (or perhaps it is?)

Posts: 12,613

 

[HiTech]

Very well put BeeBop. I remember taking a college course in Argumentative Speaking. IMHO is still the best and most interesting course I experienced.

 

[BeeBop]

HiTech,
I was going to post earlier, but will now say that You have no idea how much my respect has grown for you. I found myself reading other posts you have made with great interest. I think arguing with someone, especially someone who can reason, is a good way of getting to know them, and get close to them.
Best wishes,
Robert

BTW I just explained your new sig to another member who's first language is not English! (You did slap me after all!) <grin>

 

[HiTech]

It's often beneficial to initially get misunderstandings out in the open, deal with them properly and move on in a constructive manner. I too have read a number of your responses and amidst some of the immature posts that exist on this board, yours are a welcomed relief! Now all we have left to do is to shake hands, hug and kiss. No, wait a minute.... that behavior is for the Frenchies!

Nigel is from the land of "proper" or Queen's English. He should be able to spank us all when it comes to good communications. Spot on there, lad?

 

[BeeBop]

Yes!!! chompka man yo! (wait a minute) I'm not a frenchfry!

"proper"

and that would be pronounced propa?

Well that doesn't quite get across the sound, but what I'm trying to get at here is the dialect from the south of London, which is said to be the standard. This is what the BBC uses. The sound of the final r is dropped. The vowels are also 'rounded out' by shifting them ever so slightly, and lengthening them ever so slightly. Ahh, sorry, it is late at night for me, and I fear I'm not making sense.

Our language has a very rich and wonderful history, tied of course, with the history of the country who's name it bears. One of the reasons it is so powerful, is that it didn't have the rules and constraints applied, for a long time after many other languages did. More on this when I'm more awake.

 

[daybrown]

The Global Group Think is in an anarchic state of confusing flux because the net allows ideas to flow so fast between cultures without the mediating influence of ambassadors, journalists, or political leaders. Sometimes I think they let North Korea go on as it is just so they'll have an example of how absolutely insane grop think can get when directed by determined asinine leadership.

But for the rest of us, there seems to be a historical example at the Jade Gate, where China usta end, and the Silk Road split into 3 parts with independent capitalistic city states strung out along them. Many of the desert oasis towns, like Kucha didnt need armies. All they had to do was poison the wells to keep out mass invaders.

for over a thousand years the literate Tocharians did business with the Literate Chinese. and we can see the mutual respect each culture had for business partners. As well as the antipathy both had for the barbarians and bandits who tried to cut in on the business.

The Tocharians were *Aryan* despite living in what is now NW China. And they left us fescos of red & blonde bearded merchants dressed like Chinese. And they have found Chinese bodies buried in Tocharian graveyards dressed in western clothes, woven from wool that has DNA from European sheep, in standard western twill.

They even intermarried. In fact, you can go to Tien shen province today, and see people with light hair and eyes speaking perfectly native Chinese who could pass unnoticed in any Native Europoean city. We have done business with each other before, exchanged technologies before, literature before, art before, and we are working it out again.

Peacefully. It is the Chinese right now who are keeping the dollar afloat. Hopefully, they wont run out of patience. Like us, they struggle with corruption and abuse of power at high levels. I think they have a better grasp of history, having more of it.

But despite that, group think there has had them repeat it. They have had 10 dynasties in the last 2500 years, each destroyed by an aristocracy that understimated the amount of resources that needed to be left in the hands of people so that the masses felt they had some investment in the system to protect.

Like us, they have had steep pyramidal power structures that tried to control the flow of information, which however stifled the flow of innovation and supported increasingly incompetent monopolies. These are the folks that invented red tape.

Kucha always suppled Xian with the priciest call girls in the court. And you could always tell when a coup was coming when the hookers left town. Increasing numbers of western women again seem to be taking up the ancient craft of collecting inside information in vaginal cavities. Whereas before, they sent letters by camel train now they have the net. I dont think they post here.

But we have some idea from the mind frame looking at the letters women running the shipping offices sent to Khotan, Niya, Urumchi, or wherever, arranging for their men to get laid when they arrived. They didnt want the boys coming back with STDs from screwing around with cheap whores. This is a whole different system of collecting and exchanging information that the male dominated power structures of both China and the West dont seem to know much about.

But just like Kucha poisoning the wells, the brave heart, strong right arm, sword in hand... just dont cut it.
The bitches are taking over, unseen like the violent, in boardrooms and the halls of power, but you can smell the difference in the air. The phallic cigar smoke is gone.