Rectification without electronics!

[izzzzzz6]

Hi Y'all
I know this may sound strange. But I think there may be a way to make a type of brushless permanent magnet generator with stationary coils and get a dc output from it. Yes I'm talking without the use of diodes or transistors or very minimal electronics. At least till any sort of regulator in the circuit. Does anybody know if such a theory? I feel it is possible. At least to get a fairly stable dc voltage. Hopefully good enough to charge lead acid batteries from a hydro, wind or similar source for an off grid system. Sounds crazy. But I have an idea. PM me if you feel you would like to work on this project.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

How about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_rectification

 

[izzzzzz6]

How about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_rectification

Well. That's news to me. I wasn't really thinking along those lines. I have a different concept. Just not sure if its possible yet. If flame rectification is possible then perhaps this is one of the advantages of cold fusion? Perhaps a plasma acts like a flame in that respect? My concept is fairly simple. I just would like to start building some experiments to see what is possible. However I don't have the equipment or parts right now. For the moment this remains a discussion of theory. Looking to bounce ideas around. Then let the testing commence!
Thanks for the insight. Very interesting.
James

 

[alec_t]

A magnet moving past a stationary coil generates a voltage of one polarity as it approaches the coil and the opposite polarity as it recedes. In theory you could arrange a synchronous mechanically-actuated change-over switch to reverse the polarity at the switch output, but in practice that may prove difficult/unreliable (e.g. there would be arcing at the switch contacts).

 

[JimB]

you could arrange a synchronous mechanically-actuated change-over switch to reverse the polarity at the switch output, but in practice that may prove difficult/unreliable

Have a look at this historic device, the synchronous vibrator https://radioremembered.org/vpwrsup.htm
Scroll down the page to figure 4.

JimB

 

[MikeMl]

A magnet moving past a stationary coil generates a voltage of one polarity as it approaches the coil and the opposite polarity as it recedes. In theory you could arrange a synchronous mechanically-actuated change-over switch to reverse the polarity at the switch output, but in practice that may prove difficult/unreliable (e.g. there would be arcing at the switch contacts).

Haven't you just described a "segmented commutator"?

I'll take an alternator with slip-rings, brushes, and rectifiers any day...

How about using synchronously driven FETs in place of rectifiers to minimize the forward drop losses?

To the OP, what problem do you think you need to solve???

 

[alec_t]

JimB
That's a blast from the past

Haven't you just described a "segmented commutator"?

Probably

 

[dr pepper]

In my lifelong electronics quest this is one of the more interesting bits:

A flame diode fascinating.

A commutator does exactly what you mentioned, they've been around forever, if you pull a 3v motor from something it'll work as a dc gen.

 

[izzzzzz6]

Haven't you just described a "segmented commutator"?

I'll take an alternator with slip-rings, brushes, and rectifiers any day...

How about using synchronously driven FETs in place of rectifiers to minimize the forward drop losses?

To the OP, what problem do you think you need to solve???

Hi there Dr. Pepper Well i was just wondering if it was possible because for such things as charging batteries we could probably get away with a very dirty dc signal. The advantage would be a slight conservation of power by not using diodes or fets. I am going to paste something i just wrote in another thread, it may give you a clue to the way i have been thinking. But if you want to know more then PM me as i have a few ideas tangled up in my head, i'm looking for some open minded people to bounce ideas around. Some of my ideas include generator designs and concepts that i have not yet seen, some of my ideas have been inspired from completely different fields of physics. Ok so basically you tap off with a centre connection in the middle of the windings, or perhaps you need to tap in 1/3 and 2/3 of the way in the coil. and the other idea includes a double generator so it has two seperate generators (two seperate lots of coils and neo magnet arangements) spinning off of one rotator, or perhaps it would need magnets spinning in the opposite direction on a separate rotor, but i was thinking to reverse the second set of coils would be sufficient? This is what i wrote earlier to tcmtech :

Do you know if it would be possible to put two sine waves (ac signal) together but offset the second one to fill in the missing peaks (as best as possible, i suppose it depends on the frequency). Then if one was to measure between peak to peak, would this not be close to a DC signal since it would be almost a steady signal. would the potential difference not be close to a DC signal? This is what i am currently trying to understand. The was i see it, it should be possible to add a second (or more) alternating signals out of phase to fill the troughs and then take the potential difference from peak to peak. If this is possible then would we be able to use this signal as a dc signal (lets say for charging batteries as i imagine it to be a bit of a rough dc pattern)? Then it must be possible to generate this out of phase signal by getting clever with the windings and avoiding the use for diodes? I know it sounds wrong but it seems correct to me, we are just looking at the potential difference and if the waves are filled in on the + troughs and - troughs it would no longer be alternating (once both signals get mixed) or is this simply a dead short? So the other way of doing this would be to only generate the + and then generate another + out of phase to fill in the missing part of the wave? Just some silly ideas i am playing with in my head. The other concepts i have i believe to be quite interesting. But i'm not letting the cat out of the bag yet, unless someone is interested in working on this with me.
James

 

[izzzzzz6]

In my lifelong electronics quest this is one of the more interesting bits:

A flame diode fascinating.

A commutator does exactly what you mentioned, they've been around forever, if you pull a 3v motor from something it'll work as a dc gen.

Yes i know how a commutator switches the polarity as it revolves but the idea is to do this without any arcing parts BLDC brushless. Flame diode sounds interesting but not exactly saving energy

 

[izzzzzz6]

Have a look at this historic device, the synchronous vibrator https://radioremembered.org/vpwrsup.htm
Scroll down the page to figure 4.

JimB

Hi JimB, Jimbo here (James). Very interesting way of converting dc to ac and vice versa, i remember playing with these old vibrating reed switches at school. Sadly it still has a loss in power and also arcing. But nice piece of history. Thanks

 

[izzzzzz6]

JimB
That's a blast from the past
Probably

Hi there alec_t (ricity?) Please read post 9 to try to understand where i am coming from.
If anyone here is interested in my rather unconventional ideas about some (spherical coil designs and scrolling coil designs) please PM me, i have no idea how well these ideas will work, just looking for some like minded people to talk with about these concepts and hopefully put one or two into practice, if they turn out to be great concepts then i think it would be worth securing some sort of patent to stop larger corps from taking advantage. Then we can release the ideas as such.
James (Jimbo)

 

[alec_t]

alec_t (ricity?)

Actually, it's alec_tronics.
I've read post #9. Your concept about 'filling in' the sine wave seems to describe a conventional polyphase generator .

i think it would be worth securing some sort of patent to stop larger corps from taking advantage

I don't; as I explained in your other thread. Simply publishing the information, e.g. on this site, will prevent others from patenting the ideas and won't cost you a bean.

 

[MikeMl]

Unless you are interested in discussing it on an open forum, I will be happy to discuss it privately at my standard consulting rate of $500 per hour...

btw, the efficiency of an alternator's rectifier stack could be improved by eliminating the ~1.5V forward drop in each of two rectifiers per phase. Now that might be a fruitful area of research...

 

[izzzzzz6]

Well i really don't know exactly what i'm doing as i find it difficult to picture the theory in my head and i'm not savvy enough to calculate it, but i'll give you guys n galls (are there any female electronics hobbyists / experts on here?) two of the ideas that have been rolling round my head the last few days. So considering i am trying to come up with an idea on how to get a voltage stable enough to charge a battery (probably lead acid for now) and i would like to believe there is a way to do this with a brushless permanent magnet generator of a type that is in the early design phase (more coming later on that). Then would it be possible to use the potential difference between -7 and +7 volts to obtain 14V? in that case if we can fill in the troughs of the sine wave with one or more additional sine waves would that give us a steady -7 and +7 ? (if those are the voltages we are working with). Can we then use the potential difference here to say that it is the same as +14V? Sorry if this is completely obscene, i really have forgotten so much of my schooling that i can't really picture it. Anyway lets say that it is going to work, the question is how do we do it. Well i'm not sure how it is done or what frequency should be used to obtain these results but one idea i had was to wind the coils on the generator but solder a wire halfway along the windings so that we can tap from there, that would give us more combinations to work with, kind of like a 0V on a transformer but if we then took a second set of magnets and coils running on the same shaft with the same coil arrangement could we use these combinations to reverse half of the signal and feed it back to the first set of coils? Well it's difficult to explain, i know this isn't possible with a transformer but is there not a way to fill in the troughs of the sine wave? There must be a way to generate a second set of sine waves but out of phase with the first set? Or only pulse half wavelengths, and do this twice over each time the magnets pass the coils so it just pulses + + + instead of + - + -? How does an eddy current work? If the magnet approaches the coil it will move the electrons in one direction, but if the magnets are only approaching the coils with one pole lets say N but the coils are never exposed to S will this give a + pulse without the - pulse?
I think i have it. So if the magnets are arranged so that they have a hollow on the inside and there is a coil on the inside that is only exposed to waves of S poles and there is a coil on the outside that gets exposed to N poles and then we arrange the timing to be out of phase by not having magnets all the way around so that the south coil pulses out of phase with north coil and then we connect the two sets of coils together (by finding the correct way round i believe we will have each coil pulsing a + voltage as all we need to do is find which way round to connect the wires. Or by having two (or more) coils along the length of the rotating shaft which has the magnets attached, the 1'st coil being exposed to pulsed of N and the other coil being exposed to pulses of S then put the two signals together? Or they both are exposed to lets say N but exactly 180 degrees out of time with each other, or a combination of 4 coils all being exposed to the same polarity in pulses every 90 degrees. then put all these signals together to obtain + pulses. Hmm the more i think about it the less i think it's going to work. but if a brushed dc motor only needs a commutator to swap the signal upon each half revolution (or some other division of 360 degrees) then i don't see why it shouldn't be possible by only exposing the coils to one of the magnetic poles and then having the second coil further down the shaft and exposing it to the same magnetic pole but at 180 degrees out in the timing of the revolution. (then by adding more coils and by playing with the timing would it not be possible to further smooth out the signal). As far as i can tell it is actually good to charge a lead acid battery with a pulsed DC signal but i don't see a problem with adding a capacitor as it will not use much power, it will boost the voltage slightly and smooth the signal. Or do eddie currents not work this way?
My brain is fried

 

[izzzzzz6]

I have just realised that i am being stupid as the wave is always moving, i kept thinking of what it would look like on an oscilloscope where it appears to stand still, but this is an optical illusion created by timing or tuning the scope to the frequency of the wave to make it possible to read , it's a bit like how you would create the illusion of stopping a moving wheel or other object with a strobe. HOWEVER:

In physics, a standing wave – also known as a stationary wave – is a wave that remains in a constant position.
This phenomenon can occur because the medium is moving in the opposite direction to the wave, or it can arise in a stationary medium as a result of interference between two waves traveling in opposite directions. In the second case, for waves of equal amplitude traveling in opposing directions, there is on average no net propagation of energy.

In a resonator, standing waves occur during the phenomenon known as resonance.

In this case it seems like we only need to find a way to : This phenomenon can occur because the medium is moving in the opposite direction to the wave. So how do we create this effect with magnets and coils? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[dr pepper]

OK then.

Your first post you mention aligning more than one sine wave to produce dc, a similar thing exists but with diodes, car alternators produce 3 phase ac, this is rectified and the 3 phases 'align' so that there is a rough dc o/p, if you looked at the the o/p on a 'scope you'd see a wavy line corresponding to the tops of the 3 waveforms, what your thinking is to perform this function without diodes in the design of the alty, this might work however I dont think it'd be as good as using diodes.

Then you mention some design ideas on producing dc, some of what you say makes sense and maybe you should build a prototype, any issues you run into are likely to be inefficiencies caused by effectively shorting the o/p during one half of the cycle, which maybe tolerable but watch out for burning coils out.

I dont know about the candle rectifier however a thermionic rectifier like the gz80 has very little forward volatge drop so there is scope for higher effeciency (if you dont take into account energy lost by powering the heater, which in the case of the gz80 makes it fairly poor).

Nobody produces a dc motor or gen without brushes or an inverter circuit, doesnt mean to say it can be done, but it does mean to say that it'd take either a whole lot of thinking or a pretty new way of thinking.

 

[izzzzzz6]

After reading this about standing waves : "This phenomenon can occur because the medium is moving in the opposite direction to the wave."
I got me wondering how this could work in the generator, well what does that mean, "the medium is moving in the opposite direction to the wave"? Does that mean we would have to travel at the speed of light to get a standing wave? Or is it to do with the frequency of the wave? Is there a way to slow down this motion by using a very high frequency? Would using a high frequency be dangerous? Looks like many people are conditioning and charging batteries with pulse generators such as with the bedini concept. perhaps if the frequency was high enough the gaps / troughs between the sine wave would appear to the battery to be filled in?

 

[Vizier87]

Simply publishing the information, e.g. on this site, will prevent others from patenting the ideas and won't cost you a bean.

Cool. I didn't know that except when I applied a patent for my project, we had to look around in Gurgle for those lousy-looking scanned-page patents. Now when you said it, it makes sense.

 

[izzzzzz6]

Cool. I didn't know that except when I applied a patent for my project, we had to look around in Gurgle for those lousy-looking scanned-page patents. Now when you said it, it makes sense.

I once posted a design to myself, it's in a sealed plastic signed delivery so it can't be opened without damaging it. I heard you were meant to get it stamped by a court or someone of similar importance. I guess if you can prove that you have the earliest record of the idea then you may be protected, i wouldn't count on it without knowing the law, is there not a reason that all patents are publicly viewable? Then you have worldwide patents and patents for each country, the cost depends on how big an area you want to protect yourself over. From what i've been told, if you want to make money from your idea and you hold the patent, the best thing to do is wait till someone else starts to profit from the same idea, that way you are entitled to the profits that they made from your invention (in the country(countries) you hold the patents in). This way it doesn't cost you anything in marketing and production. However if the patent expires and nobody ever sold your concept then perhaps you would have been better putting it into production. In my case it's mainly to stop big corporations from stealing the idea, as they could patent it and hide it away from the rest of the world (if it was something that threatened their business). Oh and the invention i would like to protect is not really this non proven concept of brushless rectification without diodes or fets. Is would be to protect some of the generator designs that i have thought of. I will be working more on these in December so if we start to get anywhere with the concepts i'll fill you all in on what they are.