toner transfer with silicone impreg paper

[justDIY]

has anyone tried the toner transfer method using silicone impregnated paper (sold as "parchment paper" in the baking isle, not to be confused with waxed paper)? I was doing some baking yesterday and the idea hit me that the paper is nice and thin, and would work well for lining up double sided layouts - as it's much more translucent than photo paper.

it has a very low surface friction, not as non-stick as teflon but pretty slippery - if the printer can deposit toner on it, the toner should be eager to come off again for something like copper clad that's been burnished with steel wool.

the package claims not to use past 450F, so the heat of the iron should be well below that range - I don't know about the heat of the fuser in the printer... since the silicone is part of the paper, rather than a coating applied on top, it shouldn't come off during the ironing process.

what are your thoughts?

 

[Hero999]

I've tried it and it didn't work. The paper is too wrinkly and it tends to get baggy when you apply the iron. I couldn't get the toner to form solid traces on the board.

 

[philba]

You should try the backing to peel-off labels. temperature and pressure stable.

 

[Hero999]

I bet you can even reuse it a couple of times!

 

[3v0]

I tried baking parchment, alu foil, various brands of printer paper etc. The problem with the parchment wast that it was too slick. The toner would not stick to it.

For a a buck or two a sheet you can get stuff that work without screwing around (Pulsar or P&P Blue). Why mess with it.

 

[Sceadwian]

I would really like to see someone try something like what this page sells


It'd be cheaper than press and peel blue and re-useable.

 

[3v0]

Both Pulsar and P&B blue use a layer of another material over the somewhat pitty toner to provide dense traces and pads.

Even if then toner sticks enough to transfer, and if you find some way to release the sheet from the toner, it still will not work as well as the commerical products.

You can skip the transfer step and mod an old laser printer to print directly on the copper clad.

The problem there is that you will have to invest in a laser printer cartridge for the old laser printer.

 

[evandude]

I would really like to see someone try something like what this page sells


It'd be cheaper than press and peel blue and re-useable.

once again, good luck getting the toner printed on there in the first place. The reason press-n-peel blue works is that it's got the intermediate blue layer that lets the toner stick very well during printing, but peel off very easily after ironing... Plus the extra layer of etch resist, as 3v0 pointed out.

Printing directly onto a sheet like you are suggesting is just a balance between toner adhesion during printing, and ease of peeling after ironing, based on how slick the sheet is. I've heard mention of people printing directly onto regular transparency sheets (which are a bit less extreme than teflon) and peeling, but haven't heard any great success stories.

As a sidenote, I know everyone always complains about the price of press-n-peel and similar products, but really, it generally costs under $2 a sheet, and when you use it properly, which is easy, (cut out only as much as you need and tape it to a piece of plain paper for printing), there is very little waste, and it works out to something like 2-3 cents per square inch. That's cheaper than the PCB it gets put on, and probably on par with the cost of the etching solution you use to etch it. Yeah, it's a small investment, as you have to buy quite a few sheets at a time, but still...

 

[BeeBop]

I'd have to agree with Evan, the price per board is quite low for Pulsar or Press and Peel. Also get the second layer (Pulsar uses green TRF,) because it does work very well. I went from trying to make double sided boards to 'getting everything on one side,' because I could make the traces that much thinner.
I think Philba offers a good idea, though, with the label backing, if you really want to spend the time researching alternatives. But then again, if your time is worth anything, then the existing technologies would be the best route to go.

 

[evandude]

But then again, if your time is worth anything, then the existing technologies would be the best route to go.

I definitely agree there. If you stop and think about it, the few extra cents that it costs per board to use press-n-peel over something cheaper like photo paper, only works out to be worth a few minutes of your time at most, even at minimum wage... and just seconds if you consider your time worth a more suitable hourly wage of an engineer or tech - so the time savings of using a fast, easy, reliable method can really pay for themselves many times over.

In any case, if anyone does feel motivated enough to try out some of these suggested transfer methods, I'm sure everyone would be very interested in seeing the results. I'm very happy with press-n-peel, so I don't feel the need to experiment with new methods myself, but that's not to say I wouldn't switch to something else if someone else experimented with it first and found it to be great.

 

[Hero999]

If you want to go down the cheap route of using something like PTFE or magazine paper then a fine line permanent marker is always useful for filling in any gaps in the toner.

 

[BeeBop]

Yes,

fine line permanent marker is always useful for filling in any gaps in the toner.

but if you do it right before etching, it can and will dissolve. It also takes a lot of time for touch ups.

 

[Hero999]

Perhaps you used a cheap and nasty pen. When I use magazine paper it doesn't take that long to fill in the odd gap because there aren't that many.

 

[justDIY]

So far I'm getting good results with HP premium plus photo paper ... downside is it costs more than pnp blue ... I'll try some of that next ... lowest cost isn't the big objective here, just trying to think of using what I have versus sending out for different stuff

I'm still a firm believer in photolithograpgy, but I needed an alternative method to produce a one-off board, since with my photo setup I produce an entire 4.5x6.5 inch panel at once.

From my supplier I pay $2.95 for a 4x6 sheet of 1/16 1oz copper clad plain, or $3.25 for 4.5x6.5 sheet of 1/16 1oz positive acting copper clad.

 

[3v0]

The commercial transfer papers work well and are not expensive.

Pulsar even has a method to do silk screens. At this point a better board would have plated through holes, and solder masks. Yup, send it out.

For me the tools and methods can be as interesting as the actual projects. But at this point the transfer process is, for me, a done deal. Experimenting with it is falls under the same catagory as making my own wire.

There seem to be some journey that people have to make by themselves. Maybe this is one of them.

 

[Ambient]

www.Allelectronics.com had 4" x 6" boards for $2.00, single sided. They also have etchant and pens. I order a lot of stuff through these guys. Lots of good stuff that they pick up and unload for cheap. Lots of odds and ends.

I have yet to try using the P&P Blue but will be soon. For making double sided boards I was thinking you could layout the board keeping through-hole components a half inch apart so the spacing will not be critical. Then drill all the holes after etching one side to line up the paper on the other side. Just fixing imperfect lineups with a pen or a jumper wire.

 

[3v0]

I am not sure if the P&B Blue is opaque, (Evandude?). The Pulsar paper is nearly so but can be lined up over a light table or held up to a bright light.

A half inch is way overkill. You should be able to get the 2nd side so close that the size of each pad is enough to make up for the misalignment. If you are using EagleCad there is a script called drill-aid (run drill-aid) that reduces the hole size. The idea is to leave just enough hole to start the drill bit. It does this by drawing small circles on layer 116 and does not change the top or bottom layer.

You may want to try drilling the holes first. Then etch one side at a time. See the method on etching with a sponge and other tips on the PulsarProFX site. I use box tape to protect the side that is not being etched, burnish it down. The etchant creeps about 1/4 inch under the tape on the sides so be sure the board is a bit larger then the artwork. A paint on solution might be better (suggestions?).

 

[evandude]

I am not sure if the P&B Blue is opaque, (Evandude?). The Pulsar paper is nearly so but can be lined up over a light table or held up to a bright light.

PnP is relatively translucent, certainly enough to allow you to line things up over a light.

A half inch is way overkill. You should be able to get the 2nd side so close that the size of each pad is enough to make up for the misalignment. If you are using EagleCad there is a script called drill-aid (run drill-aid) that reduces the hole size. The idea is to leave just enough hole to start the drill bit. It does this by drawing small circles on layer 116 and does not change the top or bottom layer.

drill-aid is awesome, I just discovered it a month or so ago, and now I consider it an absolute MUST for homemade PCB's.

You may want to try drilling the holes first. Then etch one side at a time. See the method on etching with a sponge and other tips on the PulsarProFX site. I use box tape to protect the side that is not being etched, burnish it down. The etchant creeps about 1/4 inch under the tape on the sides so be sure the board is a bit larger then the artwork. A paint on solution might be better (suggestions?).

I've heard of people painting the back side of a board with nail polish or some kind of spray enamel or something, when making boards with a solid ground plane across one whole side.

There have been a few methods of doing double-sided boards with toner transfer mentioned on the forums, some ironing one side at a time, some ironing both at once, and all the ones I've seen involve etching the whole board at once.

 

[Ambient]

I don't know if someone has mentioned this before but you could make a double sided board by using two single sided boards. If you leave enough room around the edges and do not care if the boards edges line up perfectly this would work. Just make each side on a separate board then stack them together after drilling, using the through-hole components to line up the traces. It may take less time if you are not worried about looks.

If I was making a double sided board I would definitely try to make it perfect using 3v0's method, but if I don't have a double sided board on me or if time was critical I will give the 2-board idea a try.

I am going to be making a PCB using some Staples brand Photo Paper to transfer it. I will let you guys know how it works out, cause it is much cheaper than the specialty paper.

 

[evandude]

I am going to be making a PCB using some Staples brand Photo Paper to transfer it. I will let you guys know how it works out, cause it is much cheaper than the specialty paper.

If it means anything, I used the staples picture paper for a year or so, and met with reasonable success, but as soon as I tried Press-n-Peel I never looked back. It's way less work, way faster, makes higher-quality boards, and is far more reliable. Staples picture paper requires quite a bit of soaking and scrubbing to remove the paper, and it usually gave me a number of broken/damaged traces on each board.

With that said, if cost is truly your ONLY concern, staples picture paper will get the job done for many boards. There's some pictures of some of the boards I made with it in this (WAY outdated) old tutorial of mine:
http://www.eegeek.net/electronics/tutorials/tonertransferpcbtutorial.htm