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PWM - browns gas generator

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by Flex, Jul 13, 2008.

  1. Conrad_Turbo

    Conrad_Turbo New Member

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    Or the people stating the claims should put up facts... If I were to even attempt having an engine run off HHO I would begin with a model airplane engine on a workbench along with a battery powering a water splitting cell (or whatever term it's called). Show the measured current to producing the hydrgen and then load the engine on a dynometer to prove the power output from the engine. I haven't even seen that...let alone a true real world vehicle do that.

    Energy out = energy in - losses
     
  2. Electric_EyE

    Electric_EyE New Member

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  3. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    If this stuff was even marginally useful, there would have been commercial products and kits being offered all over the place. I've seen the schematics and hardware, pretty low cost, which means huge profit potential. There is a lot of stuff people could easily build their selves with a quick stop at any hardware store, and maybe Radio Shack (just an example, have been in one for maybe 30 years). Only people making money, are those selling books, plans, and home videos of how they built their designs

    Most any chemistry research lab could set this up on a slow afternoon, just to play with between paid projects. If there was even the slightest potential, I'm sure they'd be all over it. This isn't a new, ground breaking concept. A lot of the schematics have obsolete part numbers and very old technology.

    I still believe you get what you pay for... The return will never equal what you put into it. There will be losses making the gas, and more losses burning it. Might make for an impressive show, but you'll need to sell a lot of tickets, just to break even...
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    If you fool the car's computer so that it doesn't see the extra oxygen then HHO is supposed to help gasoline burn better so a little less gasoline is used.
    The testimonial from the trucker with a huge engine and a tiny bottle of water: "Better fuel economy" (no proof).
     
  6. Electric_EyE

    Electric_EyE New Member

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    I hear that all the time. This stuff is now coming to the forefront because of the demand AND the internet. It will be found stanley meyers was ahead of his day I believe. And remember, our government does not yet TAX water does it? Not only that, if you disassociate salt water, side gas would be chlorine, very dangerous. This is not stuff to play with. Prob best to stick with distilled water....

    Here are some links as I was researching today: (too lazy to do research?... too lazy to click some links?)

    Police dept investigating advantages:http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/jul...-lucie-patrol-cars-a/?partner=yahoo_headlines

    News station doing tests:http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

    Company now producing HHO units for aforementioned entities at $1200 a piece:http://www.hydro4000.com/
     
  7. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    I don't see why you are having a problem with understanding why this won't work.

    Look at the energy conversions taking place.

    Petrol to kinetic energy - 25% efficient.
    Kinetic to electrical - 80% efficient.
    Electrical to chemical (using electrolysis to produce 'Brown's gas') - 60%?
    Brown's gas to kinetic 25%?

    You're loosing more energy by doing more conversions, it's pretty obvious.

    Even the above estimates are optimistic, they assume the engine and alternator are working at their maximum efficiencies.
     
  8. Space Varmint

    Space Varmint New Member

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    Well you have to take into account the phase angle ;)
     
  9. Electric_EyE

    Electric_EyE New Member

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    The efficiency of electrolysis using PWM can be up to 85%...

    Using your petrol to kinetic conversion at 25%, if you add a turbo to an engine you raise it's volumetric efficiency. By how much I don't know, but if adding a turbo raises an engine's efficiency why can't electrolysis have the same effect?
     
  10. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    It changes nothing, even if I was wrong about the effiency of electrolysis.

    It could be 99% efficient but it adds another energy conversion step to the process.

    Turbochargers are different, they actually increase the thermodynamic efficiency of the engine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo

    You might next ask about hybrid cars and how they boost efficiency even though there's an extra conversion of energy from one form to another. The simple answer is that they rely on the fact: that engines are most efficient at 3000rpm and inefficient at 1000rpm and electric motors are effient at all speeds. When the engine is operating near maximum efficiency, some of the kinetic energy is converted to electrical energy and stored in the battery and wehrn traveling at lower speeds the engine can be shut down and the energy in the batterys can be used.

    Using electrolysis to produce Brown's gas would only make the system more efficient if it was done when the engine is working at its maximum efficiency and there was an efficent method for converting the stored energy in the Brown's gas to kinetic energy. Currently the latter is very inefficient, in fact it's just as bad as the combustion engine which is why you don't gain, you only loose.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2008
  11. Space Varmint

    Space Varmint New Member

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    Written by two athiests funded by the Bilderberg's. Bet you buy into Global warming and Evolution too. Don't you? :D
     
  12. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    Bet you buy into creationism, inteligent design or similar pseudoscience.
     
  13. Electric_EyE

    Electric_EyE New Member

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    The idea of using brown's gas or any supplemental gas for that matter is to fool the car's computer by making the oxygen sensors read a rich condition. This would lean the mixture out and save gas. One could take this idea 1 step further and reprogram the fuel curves for a constant lean condition and supplement it with more HHO to get rid of the lean "knock". This would increase the MPG's. That's all we're talking about here. Not really thermodynamics or efficiency of systems. I am only arguing this because I fully intend to take a scientific approach when I start doing this. I've got an auto scope and can take snapshots of let's say an injector pulse width. As a first step, I'll look at that before and after addition of HHO.
     
  14. Space Varmint

    Space Varmint New Member

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    We'll take it to the lounge, now, about that Brown's gas. I thought that article with the aluminum and soda can was pretty interesting. If you can supplement it chemically using very cheap and low amounts of chemical than it becomes more viable.
     
  15. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    You can put a circuit between the O2 sensor and the computer to make the engine run leaner or richer.

    I like the idea of a turbo for high compression and water injection to eliminate the knock. This goes back to airplane engines in WWII.

    As best I know there are 3 ways to use water injection. The first is to get rid of knock by cooling the burn. This does not require much water. A second method injects more water and is said to scavenge/convert more heat to power. At the extreme there is the 6 cycle engine that does intake-compression-power-exhaust (inject water) - steam power cycle -exhaust. I understand people are working on this but I do not have a link.

    We would need a new engine to do the last one. The second one is interesting. I think the water injection needs to be of a complexity in line with a multi-port fuel injection system. This with a turbo might be the way to go.

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2008
  16. Electric_EyE

    Electric_EyE New Member

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    Water injection will be perfect to cool down the burn. Hydrogen and oxyhydrogen burn hotter and I expect the engine to reach higher operating temps with HHO injection and gas alone. I've been looking into water injection kits. Summit has one for almost $500 that runs off of the MAF sensor. The kit was originally meant for additional horsepower and to get rid of knock, because the small amount of water/methyl alcohol effectively raises the octane and slows the burn. The methyl alcohol (windshield washer fluid) adds horsepower. All this is hypothetical. So far I've only made the electrode and housing. This weekend hopefully I'll start looking at injector waveforms. Here's a link for the water injection. http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=324. The website also has opinions on HHO generators...
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2008
  17. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    I read what I could find on water injection a few months ago.
    The washer fluid is to keep the water from freezing. As far as I know the extra power comes from the high compression / slow burn that the water allows you to use.

    The products for water injection are overpriced. It would take quite a while to recover the cost. I suppose we may be paying for the engineering involved but these prices seem out of line. If these is not that much to it. It makes more sense for the car makers or the people who provide aftermarket turbos to include these. They already have all the info on their uC's. About all they need to add is the pump and tank.
    [​IMG]

    EDIT:
    The STS dual stage boost controllers have water injection control built in but it is full on/off for the water. I do not know how well this works when thinking MPG.

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2008
  18. fmcquaid77@embarqmail.com

    fmcquaid77@embarqmail.com New Member

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  19. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Can you trust results of a test of The Hydro-4000 by a TV station?
    I wonder how much they got paid to advertise the thing? And then fudge the test?

    I might trust the test by the cops.
     
  20. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    Interesting idea. Let's look at the list of authors, shall we?

    Hm. That's a lot more than two. Let's check out where they work:

    Golly. Those places sure sound like hotbeds of atheism, don't they? Baptists just *love* that sort of thing.

    Where do you get this 'Bilderbergs' nonsense? The study states quite clearly that funding was provided by the John Templeton Foundation, which, if you care to study up on it (I take it that you prefer to just make things up and then not post references to support your bizarre statements), comes under fire from *both* sides of the argument for funding research seen to be on the "other side".

    And yes, I do buy global warming, because only a fool ignores blatant evidence. I do not necessarily buy that humans are causing it, however.

    I haven't heard any better ideas than evolution. It's the only theory offered so far which fits the evidence available.

    Are any of your posts going to contain any actual information or are you just going to keep making pointless, emotionally loaded statements and fail to provide any supporting references or actual arguments?


    Torben
     
  21. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    Yeah, a little lazy to keep looking at basically the same thing over and over... Kind of lost interest back in the 'Joe Cell' days.

    I didn't click the news links, as I don't believe they are 100% accurate or unbiased. They cover most any story, doesn't really matter, just as long as they can get people to watch and respond. On the Hydro4000 site, couldn't find a price tag anywhere, clicked on the map for Florida, got a pop-up with a list of names and phone numbers, mostly individuals. Not interested enough to get my phone number on some telemarketers list through caller-id, just to see what they. I guess since they are selling it over the internet, it must be true. :)

    $1200 is kind of steep to save $14 every couple of weeks, more the 3 years to recover the price... Most of the cars I've owned cost less than $1,000. Think I'll just continue to throw away my money at the pump for a while longer, maybe the price will drop.

    Their claim that for diesel engines, it will burn most of the pollutants away... kind messed with me. Doesn't burning pretty much anything produce some sort of greenhouse carbon? Always thought carbon was pretty much indestructible...
     

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