Obama-Care, dead?

[kchriste]

It kinda nice that Nixon(R) liked to record his own conversations:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Transcript_of_taped_conversation_between_President_Richard_Nixon_and_John_D._Ehrlichman_%281971%29_that_led_to_the_HMO_act_of_1973

A video clip from Sicko about the same thing:
YouTube - Nixon Launches the HMO's - What a SICKO

 

[shortbus=]

To those who really want to know; **broken link removed**

And; Scrivener.net

 

[HarveyH42]

Well, it passed last night, and should be promptly signed into law this week. Not exactly sure what's in the bill, that is going to be signed though, they were doing some funny stuff right up until the voting. Still think they should have started over from scratch. They had some great ideas, learned a lot about what people liked and hated, and could have come up with a much better approach, instead of forcing a bad idea through the works. Definitely American Politics couldn't get any worse, than what we've seen on this bill. It didn't pass on it's own merits, or a majority of agreement, but through private talks and deals, bought votes, and shady tactics. I can't remember any other legislation passed in this manner, but got a hunch we will be seeing more of it, before the fall elections. Guess the insurance companies are the big winners, no need to advertise or compete, since every American is now obligated to pay them, and I'd expect a sharp increase in premiums.

I also expect the cost of living to increase. Everything is going to cost more, since the people targeted to pay the $940 billion (probably much more), are the ones who set the prices, and as usual, just pass the burden on down.

Feel sorry for those over 65, since that is where you go from buying insurance, to the government plan (Medicaid/Medicare), which is going to be severely cut, as will subsidies for supplemental insurance. Older people generally need to more attention, now they'll pay more, for less. How many planned this into their retirement?

So this is Obama's first promised 'change', guess he really did earn his Nobel Prize for pulling this off. Perhaps his next project will be getting together with another Nobel laureate, and for the planet to cool down (wasn't cold enough this winter, still a little chilly outside).

 

[Hero999]

Well I'm not too sure exactly what's in the bill either but here's what I've learned from the UK media:

I've heard it forces everyone to get health insurance and those who can't afford it will go on a government run scheme. The health insurance companies will be subject to a greater level of regulation, so they can't refuse to insure people or pay up when they should.

I have mixed views, the idea of forcing people to pay for health cover is certainly not going to be popular but I don't see how anyone could disagree with a better government run program or greater regulation of the insurance companies unless they work for an insurance company themselves.

As I said before, I don't think it goes far enough, an insurance cooperative run for the benefit of the people would be the best solution but the insurance companies aren't going to like that.

 

[tcmtech]

I am rather curious to see how this smooths out over the next several years. I need to do some more reading though.
Right now there is too much open room for things to be purposely misinterpreted and skewed by people for or against it in order to persuade others to follow their reasonings whether they are justified or not.

 

[Reloadron]

I see it all getting interesting in the next few months to a year. There will likely be an issue of if it is constitutional for the federal government to force the people of the states to buy something they don't want. Obviously for those who want it fine but the question is for those who don't can they be forced to buy it?

Like most, I'll wait and see what happens.

Ron

 

[Hero999]

Since when have the US government allowed a silly thing like the constitution get in the way before?

Some state schools routinely get teaching the pseudoscience of intelligent design, which directly contradicts the constitutional separation of church and state. Cruel and inhumane punishments such as electrocution are carried out regularly, along with torture yet the constitution has done nothing to stop it. The constitution is only ever used as an excuse by people to stop the government from doing something they dislike and even then, they don't always succeed.

 

[HarveyH42]

Just seems to me that if it was a good Bill, there would have be so much trouble, or sneaky-deals to get it to pass. Usually politicians do all the dirty-deals less obviously, this time they didn't seem to care.

The obligation to buy insurance bothers me, since I do most of my own doctoring, and wouldn't go to a professional unless I had no other option. It's nice if you can afford it, but sometimes people would rather hang on to the cash for other things. Forcing insurance companies to cover people who already need treatment, kind of undermines the whole principal of insurance, since the are betting you and most of their policies will pay in, more than they have to pay out. Then there are those with unhealthy lifestyle choices, who will undoubtedly need much treatment, and are unlikely to be gainfully employed. I expect rates to increase drastically over the next few years, before much of this stuff kicks in. There will need money available to subsidize, which taxing the upper class, only means higher prices for the lower, working class.

An excise tax on premium policies, is a bad idea, since you would pay for the best you can afford for your family, shouldn't be punished for it. From what I gather, the Senate's Health Bill is what passed, the changes are on a separate bill, and was sent to the House. The changes will most likely get lost somewhere, since they got what they wanted already.

Should be interesting to see if this actually gets put into practice, or repealed before it goes that far, four years is a lot of time. Now that Obama knows he can sell anything, really kind of wonder what's next. End the war on terror, Climate Change, Jobs, Immigration. Wonder what a nice house in Canada is going for these days...

 

[Reloadron]

Since when have the US government allowed a silly thing like the constitution get in the way before?

Some state schools routinely get teaching the pseudoscience of intelligent design, which directly contradicts the constitutional separation of church and state. Cruel and inhumane punishments such as electrocution are carried out regularly, along with torture yet the constitution has done nothing to stop it. The constitution is only ever used as an excuse by people to stop the government from doing something they dislike and even then, they don't always succeed.

The actual idea behind it isn't really much of anything to do with the US Constitution, at least I don't think so. The idea behind it is to delay it and delay the president getting it into effect. The consensus being that if the opposition can take over in November they will have an easier shot at overturning it. Anyway, I think that is what it is all about but just my thinking on the subject.

As to electrocution very few states actually use that for capital punishment anymore. They have advanced to the more user friendly lethal injection methods.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

The constitution has been used many times to strike down laws. Look up the Line Item Veto or Brown V. Board of Education.

The constitution doesn't ban execution.

Intellignet design isn't being routinely taught in public schools.

The problem with not requiring people to have insurance is those who don't have insurance use emergency services for their routine medical needs, which not only dilutes the services that are needed for real emergencies, but also drives up the cost for patients who pay for thier services. Making everyone pay means the cost gets spread out among all patients.

 

[killivolt]

White Collar Crimes and Insurance

Medicare seems to be a joke or at least I laugh at the Government when they think they can do it better than states or won't give local Government the power to control their own.

So, much fraud in Medicare. People getting double amputees or procedures they never received.

People are looking at their bills and trying to tell big Brother look at this why won't or can't you stop it ?

They cannot get anyone to listen in Gov nor can they or are they willing to stop it.

Who say's the fed's can do it better ?

 

[BrownOut]

They cannot get anyone to listen in Gov nor can they or are they willing to stop it.

Medicare is a hugely popular program. It's a political "third rail" Anyone who tries to stop it gets sent home.

 

[Reloadron]

Medicare is a hugely popular program. It's a political "third rail" Anyone who tries to stop it gets sent home.

I don't see medicare as a problem other than waste. abuse and fraud. Likewise I don't see Social Security as a problem. I do see their ugly cousins as a problem. They would be SSI and Medicaid.

The current program as it is written cuts medicare and increases medicaid. Nice way to screw those who contributed to the system all their lives and reward the irresponsible who seem to lack any work ethic.

Interesting stuff

Ron

 

[HarveyH42]

I work hard for the money I earn, and far from being well off financially. Insurance bothers me, as I do my best avoiding having any need to benefit from having it. My cars have always been disposable, mean if they get wrecked or develop costly repair problems, I scrap them and find something else. My medical needs are about the same, don't take risk, do most of the right things, and have a fair understanding of basic medical and first aid. I've had insurance through work, for over 18 years at my current job, never used it, even one time. All that money paid in, is basically flushed down the toilet, or passed out to bums on the street, never to be seen again. You never get a refund or rebate, for not using insurance. With a car, you have the option not to drive. With Health Care Reform, you must buy insurance, pay what ever rate you are quoted, or face being fined for failing to comply. There is no choice or option, no freedom here, either way, you have to pay. I would personally prefer to put that money aside, let it earn interest, and decide which emergency requires drawing from it. Insurance doesn't cover my dog needing to go to a Vet, and cost almost as much as a regular doctor these days.

Wonder if they've set a minimum standard for what all we must be covered for, or a certain dollar amount. What about deductibles? Will there be a cap on co-pay? Heard from some people, that every time you speak to you doctor, it costs $35, whether he actually does anything more or not.

It just seems better to save some money for emergencies, rather than just blindly hand over your paycheck and hope for the best. I don't know much about Medicaid or Medicare, but seems like with everyone being forced into purchasing insurance, we don't need either anymore. Those who enter the country illegally, and need medical attention, should be shipped to Canada.

 

[Reloadron]

No matter how we slice and dice it comes out the same.

I have an excellent medical plan through work. The plan cost the company about $12,000 per year. I co-pay about $3,000 per year of the $12,000. That includes my vision and dental plans. That also includes my wife as a dependent. We are offered several plans through several different insurers so you can shop based on your personal needs. My wife is offered a plan through her work but chooses not to participate as she is on my plan. Therefore she is compensated for not using their plan. The beauty here is choice.

We have a choice of primary care providers to choose from and happen to very much like our doctor as well as the hospitals covered under our plan.

Neither of us have had what would be considered major catastrophic illness but I have had a few surgeries over the years. A few shoulders fixed and a disk fixed in my neck. She has never had a problem and considering I am 60 and she is 62 I feel we are fortunate. I am scheduled for a colonoscopy as my last was several years ago. My primary care physician writes the prescription and I see a specialist. They schedule at my convenience and poof we will be done.

I like things just the way they are. We work for what we have and I don't see why I should give things up in the interest of someone else. With the socialist thinking when someone else has a problem, even as a result of their own accord, why should it somehow become my problem? This is where I have a problem with some of what is proposed.

There is some good in the plan, I will admit that. I believe that someone who has worked and contributed to the system and suddenly finds themselves unemployed should have government coverage for an extended period till they can get reestablished in the work force. I sure as hell do not believe that same person should be denied with a new insurer at a new job because of a preexisting condition.

I do not believe I should have to arrange to get my mother's meds (she is 90 and worked all her life) from Canada. I believe the same government that sees fit to cover people with medicaid should find money to cover my mother's prescription cost.

I don't believe people who have failed miserably at life should be rewarded plain and simple. Don't even get me going on illegal aliens for any benefits at all.

Thus I am against what was just passed through back room non transparent deals. I don't think people should be forced to buy what they don't want. Auto insurance being a different animal. You choose to drive a car (there is a choice there) then you make sure by law you are insured.

Granted this is just my take based on my position. I stand to lose what I have so someone else can have more. I just don't care for that. I happen to have liked the old ststus quo.

Ron

 

[HarveyH42]

I think insurance is the root of the problem, and what drove health care prices so high. Doctors are pretty much guaranteed payment, for however much the choose to charge, when the patient is insured, which kind of drove more people to buying insurance, whether they really needed or not. This turned out to be good for insurers and doctors, since both had lots of easy money rolling in. Lawyers got into malpractice suits, which forced doctors to carry more insurance to pay them. The insurance companies are grabbing money from both the doctors and patients, lawyers getting a good chunk too, and in the end, its the patients who pay the bills.

Don't think this new law, addresses where the heath care dollars really go, just more people paying into the profits of people shuffling papers, not treating illness and injury. There are no guarantees in treatment, and people do make mistakes (doctors and patients), lawsuits should be capped or abolished. People need to realize the choosing to go the hospital is serious business, not an opportunity to cash in. Most any kind of surgery leaves a scar, and the results are different for everyone. If the doctor saved your life, you should be grateful, not call it a disfigurement and seek damages.

It got to be just wrong to punish people for choosing to live a health lifestyle, and making us pay for those who choose to be carefree and irresponsible. It's really not hard to find a job that offers some sort of health plan, usually not a soft chair and air conditioning, but if you want it, work for it. I've pretty much always had a job with some sort of medical benefit, which I've never needed. Never had surgery of any kind, no illness where I needed a doctor, and only a few broken bones. Workers Comp covered my foot, sweated out two cracked ribs, and dealt with broken fingers and toes (not much the can do for simple fractures anyway). At 47, I'm still in better shape than quite a few of my co-workers about half my age. Some in my age group, are really looking it, sometimes I wonder how long I'm going to hold out this way, but just figure I must be doing things right.

 

[tcmtech]

At 47, I'm still in better shape than quite a few of my co-workers about half my age. Some in my age group, are really looking it, sometimes I wonder how long I'm going to hold out this way, but just figure I must be doing things right.

You are more like work hardened tool steel.
You can take those hard wearing stress loads far better than the softer people.

The down side though is like work hardened steel parts some day you will just crack for no apparent reason and the break up will be so bad you will be unrepairable.

Then the insurance company will look at you and just toss you in the scrap bin because you are easier to replace than repair just like how many hundred lathe cutters and drill bits I have done that to now. Plus the odds are your replacement will come from China just like most of my replacement cutters and drill bits do as well!

 

[HarveyH42]

I don't give up so easy, and can eventually find some way to get around the hurt, until it heals. Figure my life will just end suddenly when its time, but until then I'll get by just fine.

Got a hunch quality of health care is going down the tube with this new law, as there should be a huge increase in patients, people taking advantage of the freebies. Got a hunch that it would be a very good time to invest in the pharmaceutical companies, since pills are a simple solution, and don't have to really do much of anything. Everyone who feels pain, real, imagined, or fabricated, will have easy and cheap access to medication that they don't really need. How many insurance companies are going to want to pay for a second opinion, or even care. Pills are cheap treatment, and the policy holder is happy to pay the premiums. Insurance companies would rather see you die, rather than run up a huge tab at a hospital anyway.

Was kind of shocked, that there was any debating over abortion funding. More kids, means more people being insured, but then again those that use abortion as birth control, probably shouldn't be having kids anyway. These are the ones who neglect and abuse themselves, and couldn't expect any better for the babies, which would be costly as well.

 

[HiTech]

I'm glad to see 14 state attorney generals suing the FEDS over this travesty and farce of all farces. 30 more states are looking into this as well. The number could be growing before long. Voters better remember this bull$hit at the polls this November and if not then they deserve the smoke 'n mirrors change they voted for in the first place back in 2008. Only this time, their misguided votes are costing EVERYONE dearly. I'd like to reach through the 'puter monitors of Congress to slap a few faces.

 

[BrownOut]

Americans voted for health care reform when they elected Obama. Besides, they are not likely to forget why they voted to change their governemt in 2006, which had been asleep at the switch on 9/11, allowed OBL to escape, attacked the wrong country and fiddled while Wall Street burned.