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#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
I was following the health care reform pretty close this past year, as it looked like something that was going to cost me some money, and seemed like kind of an insane approach. Up until the Democrats lost a seat, it really looked like it was going to be sign into law, before the State of the Union speech. Then it came to a sudden halt, and apparently straight into the trashcan. Does anybody else think this was kind of strange? One Senate seat, one vote, kills the bill, before they even put it to a final vote. They still had a 60 vote majority, seems like all that thought and hard work, would have produced at least something that a majority would consider a good enough idea to give a try.

Personally, I'm pleased, and very relieved. Health insurance is a luxury, and people should actually work for it, if that is what they want and need. We should have the freedom to choose whether we want it or not. Didn't like the mandatory theme, being that I'd be paying for something I don't want or need, so other people can have it free. I'm barely in the middle-class range of income, and might have slipped a grade (work was kind of slow last year, doesn't look any better for this one).

It just looks to me, that it illustrates, just how corrupted are legislative branch has gotten. It's more about buying votes, and making deals, not working out sensible solutions the majority agree will work. Hopefully this Fall, many of the legislators will get voted out of office because of this. We need a fresh new batch of people in office, that aren't quite as cozy with the money people. Need to finds some people who will at least try to do the job as intended, before they get wrapped up in the same game the veterans have been playing for decades. Maybe term limits as well, so nobody gets too comfortable in that seat, and it would give them incentive to do some good and positive things, quickly, if they want to advance in their political career.

A lot of thing need to be fixed, cleaned up. Before getting more people to by insurance, seems like they need to cut the medical bills down to a more reasonable figure. Way too many people getting a piece of the action, and it's not the doctors. Lawyers and insurance companies should be raking in the huge profits for their services, since peoples health and lives are on the line. People should be able to pay their doctor out of pocket, without going into bankruptcy.

People with pre-existing condition, buying a new policy? Insurance is like gambling, the company is selling you coverage, they hope you never, or barely use. That gives them money to pay other claims, profits and money to invest. It doesn't make sense to gamble on a sure loss. To start out, by paying out, and hoping the patient lives, and continues to pay premiums long enough to at least cover the cost of treatment? Kind of defeats the idea behind insurance. Needs some other solution, just doesn't seem it's the right place for people to get help with their current bills. Wouldn't I get into trouble, if I go out and pay cash for a shiny new car, but only get the cheapest, most basic insurance required to drive it. Then I wreck it, completely totaled out, and then upgrade my insurance so I can get another car afterward?

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
Wouldn't I get into trouble, if I go out and pay cash for a shiny new car, but only get the cheapest, most basic insurance required to drive it. Then I wreck it, completely totaled out, and then upgrade my insurance so I can get another car afterward?
It doesn't work that way.
If you only have liability and you total your car your out the car and the money. There is no post upgrading the insurance after its wrecked regardless of how much you paid for it. But you can go out and buy another car if you want however no one else but you pays for it though.

Basically when you buy the car out right you can put whatever insurance you want on it unless you had to get a loan from a bank in order to get it. Its only then that you are required to carry the full coverage insurance and thats only until you have it paid off. At that point you can go back to having the minimum liability coverage required by law.

As a lower working class person I was welcoming the federal health care reform. It saves people like me money and would give us far better coverage than the none that I and most others in my income and social level have right now.

For people of the middle and upper class levels who have lived there their whole lives they cant relate to what living on a lower class income is like. For the most part its like someone like me trying to relate to third world poverty level. I cant relate because I dont live that way.
But I can relate to having someone who is above me say "Well just work harder and you will get to where I am at."
I know how hard I work and I see how hard that person does not have to work in comparison. They have resources I dont have and thusly can not use to better myself by just working harder.

#### killivolt

##### Well-Known Member
tcmtech said:
For people of the middle and upper class levels who have lived there their whole lives they cant relate to what living on a lower class income is like. For the most part its like someone like me trying to relate to third world poverty level. I cant relate because I dont live that way.
This could, be a problem. If you render an outcome on the finding of your property to produce Black Gold.

Then you will fall into the trap of the Government and the next level most of us will never experience.

You will have to stay ahead of the Hyena's as they laugh and bite at your tail?

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#### Mikebits

##### Well-Known Member
Personally, I'm pleased, and very relieved. Health insurance is a luxury, and people should actually work for it
I really do not understand this viewpoint at all. I do not know how you can say this. Health care is hardly a luxury and is often necessity to stay amongst the living. I am not talking about boob jobs or something like that, rather life threatening illness like heart disease or cancer in which case this is by far a luxury.
For so many Americans who do work and are hard working but earn very little, they are an illness away from bankruptcy and homelessness. The Insurance industry has such a stranglehold on us all as the current system stands; something must be done to make health care affordable for all people without having to choose between food, rent, or that much needed checkup.

Being poor should not be a death sentence.

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#### HiTech

##### Well-Known Member
I don't believe the Bill is dead.... yet. Something may get re-drafted and resubmitted before too long. If Oblabber loses on this healthcare reform, he'll be a complete puppet in the eyes of many.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
This could, be a problem. If you render an outcome on the finding of your property to produce Black Gold.
Although we have oil under our family land that doesn't mean a thing until its drilled and that could be decades before that could happen. Plus as it stands now about 1/3 of my state has oil under it so that makes for a incredible possible future but until I am there I wont bet a dime on my current well being from it!
Potentially being rich years from now doesn't serve me any good today. Its something that every low income person has to deal with.

Oddly for much of the lower income people the recent down turn and related massive loss of middle class jobs had a few perks as we see it.
Many of those middle class people where the ones who once looked down on people of our income level and told us to work harder.
Now they have been reduced to our income level and cant find work because its now them who doesn't have the resources and skills to compete with us! We grew up in this type of living situation and know how to live in it and they dont. Thats our resource that they dont have and cant just go out and buy.

I think that may play out at some point in possibly improving the chances of a national health care system when those people have used up all of their reserves and reach the point where they too have to start dropping any and every high cost expense in life just to keep alive.

#### AllVol

##### New Member
tcmtech;I think that may play out at some point in possibly improving the chances of a national health care system when those people have used up all of their reserves and reach the point where they too have to start dropping any and every high cost expense in life just to keep alive. The 2009 BMW get traded in for the well used 1999 dodge. The $500K home gets sold for$100K and the $55K 1950's basic box frame in the cheap part of town becomes the new home. And we become the neighbors because life stinks some times said: No, no, little man. No matter how hard you pound that square peg, it won't fit in a round hole. I realize that living miles from nowhere and even farther from civilization can dim perspective, but it seems your view of the world is more jaded by your own failures than any displayed by your hated middle class. Historically, people who can produce do. Those who can't either teach or fall by the wayside. Curiously, I see none of the symptoms you describe of BMW's for Dodges and 250K homes down the tubes. Instead, I see 90 thousand people who spend much more than$1500 annually for the right to attend six football games screaming because a 2 million dollar a year coach went to another school for 4 million.

I see people spending the weekend in Oklahoma! of all places because the couldn't fly home from an important business meeting.

I see people unable to attend birthdays, take trips, attend the Symphony, take in sporting events or attend church because snow and ice covered the roads, not because they couldn't affort gas.

I see people who continued along with their lives, buying food and clothing, paying utilities, paying insurance premiums and dutifully sharing their income with the US Government, so it could be doled out to others.

You see, it is that last part that deflates your contention. It takes producers to pay the bill. If you were successful in destroying the middle class, you would also destroy those less fortunate.

Round pegs fit more easily into round holes.

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
No, no, little man. No matter how hard you pound that square peg, it won't fit in a round hole.

I realize that living miles from nowhere and even farther from civilization can dim perspective, but it seems your view of the world is more jaded by your own failures than any displayed by your hated middle class.
Hey now You have no clue about me and the littleness of my life.
The majority of my family represents middle class. some are well into the upper end of middle class level as well. I have filed my taxes three times in my life where I was solid middle class myself. Two have been when employed by companies and once self employed and this year will be my fourth year that I am going to solidly land in a middle class tax range again while being self employed. For me that works out to having been middle class about 1/4 of my working life.

I do not think middle class and I do not act middle class and I certainly dont spend middle class either. I was an older than average college student for 1/4, general working class for 1/4 and poverty level for 1/4.
For me its been a fair mix of ups and downs so the average has still been in my favor. I just relate to the low point hardships the most because when I have good income I still live the poor life and put the extra income into getting my personal affairs payed off and some fall back resources built up.

I have no hatred of the middle class in general but my referance does come from the countless stories I know and have heard or read about over that last few years of people like I described having had their affluent life pulled out from under them and being left with nothing over night. The general accounts they give show how someone who has never had to live hand to mouth quickly looses everything until they learn the lower class life style. It could be ignorance or simple arrogance that made them lose everything before how to live more conservatively became understood but still all they have drains off incredibly fast as I have ever understood it.

I simply relate to the lower class far better than my middle class family because more of my social group is lower class than not thats all. I have multi millionaire family members, friends and associates as well. Unfortunately I see their blatant waste and can not relate to how they think because of it.
I have seen a few of them now personally get that life style taken away (or at least knocked way down) and have to sell the big house, the fancy vehicles, and drop the fun stuff and live far closer to how I live. Unfortunately when they lost so much all I could say was, "Well thats tough. When you had so much and I was struggling you didn't lift a finger to help me even though your resources could have more than handled it so right now I dont have enough to help you either."

I know what having a higher income floor knocked out from under me for no justified reason is like. I have been through it twice. When I have good money coming in I dont waste it on sports tickets, fancy vehicles, toys, and crap to show off my affluence but rather I pay off any debts and then pay my bills far in advance. Whats left I heavily invest in myself and my own resources so when the down days come again I have that much less distance to fall next time.

Historically, people who can produce do. Those who can't either teach or fall by the wayside. Curiously, I see none of the symptoms you describe of BMW's for Dodges and 250K homes down the tubes. Instead,
As far as the selling the $500 K house for a$100K haven't you been paying attention to the American housing markets for the last how many years now?

I may live out in the sticks as the rest of the country sees it but my stick state is one of two places in the united states that went through the economic recession with money to spare and a profitable housing market as well. While everywhere else is struggling we have been putting incredible amounts of personal resources into building up our economy and infrastructures and its showing too and I am doing my part in that effort to do better with less.
The rest of the country has an issue with people not being able to find jobs. We have help wanted signs everywhere just no one seems to be interested in coming here to work.

#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
I grew up in the cold, 40 minute drive to year round skiing. No way am I going back to that again. There is a segment of the upper classes the really bothers me though, the celebrities, you know, the stars of sports and TV. I can understand that they work hard, to get where they are, but seem sort of ridiculous the huge salaries they are paid, where there are plenty who could perform just as well, but have trouble getting a job. The sports heroes are the worst example, they go from flipping burgers, to multi-millions almost overnight, and then throw it all away and drugs, alcohol, violence, and dog fighting.

Sure, its the American dream to gain enough wealth and success, that you can enjoy a life of leisure. But there really need to be some balance, no reason some must live in poverty, where others have more money than their grandchildren could ever spend.

Getting back to Health Care... Fortunately, I've been spared any major illness or injury (few broken bones, took care of the ribs, fingers, and toes myself), but pretty confident that I could handle the bill, if need arises. Really don't think mandatory health insurance is the right solution, the same people getting rich off it, will just do even better with more people paying in. They really need to cut the profit margin on all things health related. Don't think it quite right to continuously sue doctors and hospitals, most people would have definitely had died, or been much worse off, had they not gone to the hospital. Doctors can only offer help, not guarantees. Regardless of the problem, the patient's body is what really does the healing. There are no miracles in medicine, just assistance. They really need to cut the leaches, before making a lot of radical changes. Health care should get back to being mostly between the doctor and patient, just to many people make huge profits, and have little to do with treatment.

#### Hero999

##### Banned
I suppose many people in the US have a different philosophy than those in the rest of the developed world. In the UK, Canada and Europe, basic healthcare is considered to be a human right, not a luxury that only a few privileged can afford.

I don't think Obama's bill goes far enough but the parts I've heard I like: especially the part that makes it harder for the insurance companies to screw people over, even if the rest of the bill is discarded I can't see anyone having a problem with that, unless they're involved with the insurance business.

I would like the bill to go further: there should be a basic state sponsored insurance plan which gives everyone basic healthcare and people are free to seek private insurance to top it up. The trouble is this will never be allowed because the insurance companies won't like it and have too much money and power.

I think that, ff the US government had sorted out its healthcare system 60 years ago, no one now would be saying that there shouldn't be a universal health system, I think most people would probably complaining about it not going far enough.

#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
I just don't like paying for something I don't really need or use. I watch broadcast TV, instead of cable, because not much for sitting in front of a TV. I don't own a Cellphone, since I don't spend much time talking on the phone. After the the bill got past 2,000 pages, I stopped looking at it. Never saw much to actually bring down the cost of health care, just bring more people into paying for it. Even when Obama or the legislators discuss it, that talk about slowing the rising cost, not reducing it, kind of like Climate Change. There are a few good points, true, but the get lost in the many other pages. Just doesn't seem much of bargain, if we all have to pay thousands a dollars per year on insurance, we never wanted, and have little use for. Visiting a doctor shouldn't require insurance, for anybody to afford to go. That is where the main focus should be, more of the patient's money, should actually be going to the health care provider, not the insurance companies. So far the bill doesn't do much to reduce all that much waste. Didn't see much that controls the rates either, just that the insurance companies can't drop you for filing claims, nor raise individual rates based on risk, but across the board increases are still wide open. There really should be another option, some sort of bond, or savings account, where an individual can hold on to his hard earned money. I pay plenty in taxes, and this is going end up be about the same burden.

#### AllVol

##### New Member
I just drove by the County Public Health Department. What's that? A big, three-story, three-qyuarter city block building that provides free health care to the indigent, infirm and elderly citizens of this community. They do a land-office business, with appointment books filled daily.

Did I mention it is free?

The citizens of this city, county and state provide for the medical, perscription, dental and ocular care of those who are by misfortune not able to care for themselves. But there are some who would have you to believe that these people are having to do without any care at all... dying for want of medicine and proper attention. Tommyrot!

Maybe there are some areas of the United States where free med is not available, but in my heart I don't believe it, any more than I believe established middle-class persons are being crushed by this economy. It doesn't add up.

I'm not saying there isn't a strain on our health structure. There is, and it will get larger. But forcing those who have to give up more to support those who don't isn't going to be the answer. Eventually that teat will dry up. Reducing insurance costs won't affect the level of health care... it will simply mean the insurance companies will be reducing their investments, which means more job insecurity as fewer plants and institutions, goods and services are brought into existence.

And I don't really trust those in power to read a document that is only a couple hundred pages short of being as thick as the Digi-Key catalog (2776 ppg).

As Elmer Fudd would say: "Be ve-wy, ve-wy ca-we-ful who you vote for in 2010."

#### smanches

##### New Member
I think the biggest helpful benefit will be if they actually remove the anti-trust exemption from insurance companies. At least then there could be competition to lower prices. Then the market could help on its own, the way the republicans want it. But how could the market balance itself with the exemptions in place? Never understood that.

#### HiTech

##### Well-Known Member
In my state, public funded healthcare (for those who qualify) often receive more complete coverage of services than I do while paying high premiums for a "Cadillac" private health plan. I guess my plan really isn't a Cadillac afterall .... more like a Buick sold at Cadillac prices!

#### Hero999

##### Banned
I just don't like paying for something I don't really need or use.
The chances are you will need healthcare one day or another whether you think you will or not.

Never saw much to actually bring down the cost of health care, just bring more people into paying for it. Even when Obama or the legislators discuss it, that talk about slowing the rising cost, not reducing it, kind of like Climate Change. There are a few good points, true, but the get lost in the many other pages. Just doesn't seem much of bargain, if we all have to pay thousands a dollars per year on insurance, we never wanted, and have little use for.
No.

Everyone will be be paying much less for insurance; part of the bill is to protect people from being screwed over by the insurance companies. Surely you've got to agree with that, even if the rest of the bill gets rejected?

Visiting a doctor shouldn't require insurance, for anybody to afford to go.
Exactly, I'd take that a step further, you sholdn't have to pay at all, it should be free.

There really should be another option, some sort of bond, or savings account, where an individual can hold on to his hard earned money. I pay plenty in taxes, and this is going end up be about the same burden.
What happens if you've just started your bond and need healthcare immediately? You'll need a lone.

In my state, public funded healthcare (for those who qualify) often receive more complete coverage of services than I do while paying high premiums for a "Cadillac" private health plan. I guess my plan really isn't a Cadillac afterall .... more like a Buick sold at Cadillac prices!
I didn't know there were existing welfare programmes for healthcare?

It sounds like the government should just expand them.

#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
Everyone will be be paying much less for insurance; part of the bill is to protect people from being screwed over by the insurance companies. Surely you've got to agree with that, even if the rest of the bill gets rejected?
I don't see insurance rates dropping, haven't in the past. Don't have any medical insurance experience, but my car insurance keeps going up (damn tickets), and takes a long time to get a check when you do file a claim. Suppose it's the same. Might point is why should we have to pay an insurance company in the first place? Seems like they are the once getting rich from all this. People pay them protection money, which the insurance company is very reluctant to part with. Doctors pay malpractice insurance, to pay the ambulance chasing attorneys. Seems like they are the price control, and the biggest winners in all this. How are they going to make a profit, or rake in the big bucks, if the law tells them what the can charge for coverage, that they have to cover everyone equally, and pay for all the procedures law makers feel necessary. So the 400lb man gets the same coverage, same rate, but is guaranteed to be a very costly customer to keep alive and happy. A drug or alcohol abuser, gets the same deal, but will of course be a frequent emergency room visitor as well. And of course, those without jobs, will get it all for free. Some people choose to live unhealthy lifestyles, and won't be paying for it. The insurance companies will be paying out as much, if not more than they take in, rates either go up, government subsidizes, or they throw in the towel. Either way, the working guys are going to be paying for it in the end.

What is needed, is something set up as not for profit, just shuffle the papers, no stockholders or CEOs. Mostly, I'm upset about not having the option of dealing with my own health needs. If I do end up needing a doctor, I'll figure out how to pay the bill, beside could always file bankruptcy... Chance are I'll probably die before the need arises anyway, so why even worry about it.

##### Well-Known Member
This is just one of those naturally touchy subjects. Personally I have my thoughts on the subject. My views and thoughts are obviously based on my own little position in life in general.

I am not against working towards something to cover pre existing conditions. Being a good little capitalist I believe a business, any business is in business for one reason above all else and that is to make a profit. An insurance company taking on a client with a pre existing condition is just plain stupid from a business standpoint. However, it just seems wrong that someone is denied insurance when changing jobs or being employed. I don't have an answer but something needs done in that area. Mind you I am talking about people who have worked and had coverage. I am not talking about people who have never contributed to the system and awake every morning asking not what they can do for their country but what their country can do for them.

Moving along to COBRA. I believe when a worker who has coverage is let go, laid off or whatever for ecconomic reasons (that does not include being fired) that there should be some form of federal funded COBRA policy for them covering maybe 6 months or a year of benifits. It should not be a forever thing.

Overall I see those who would benifit from this legislation supporting it. Personally I would not benifit and my overall healthcare that I have worked for would suffer. For those wanting more free stuff from the government it is a great deal, for those who will have to pay for the free stuff (nothing is free) it isn't a good deal.

Just My Take
Ron

#### ronsimpson

##### Well-Known Member
Government and healthcare….I can go either way.
What I don’t like is 2000 pages of new law that was to be voted on before the new year with out any one reading the 2400 pages. What does an air force base in Nebraska have to do with healthcare? There is a lot of ‘I will vote yes only if you send \$50,000,000 to my favorite project’.

I do not like the insurance companies and their 30% overhead and worse yet their desire to get rid of all sick people. (remove from insurance not kill)

The US government is famous for 50% overhead and strange policies that are really good for some people and really really bad for some others.

Many people believe Obama is rushing into healthcare with out taking time to think about it. This is a very big change. I would like small changes every 6 months. This way if there is a train reck we don’t have to be going 1000 m/h.

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