Magnetic Fields - Permanent Magnet Generator

[lmeissen]

I've got this idea in my head... Generate power using permanent magnets. "Waterwheel", exept you use magnets. Very simple, will finish diagram depends what you guys think...

Please let me know what you think and if it can work or not. If not, why not..
**broken link removed**
Regards
Lee

 

[Sceadwian]

That diagram is a little confusing. What is that box with the red bars on it on the left, and what is that brown bar and little brown box in the upper right? You have to have a coil somewhere to pickup the electricity and where is it getting the energy from? Is the larger bar magnet in the upper right supposed to be spinning? Also the torque this puts out is going to be incredibly low.

 

[lmeissen]

The Green bar is a magnetic "shield", you need 12 shields
Brown bar, not magnetic material / plastic for example
Small brown box - stopper
blueRed Bars will be magnets

One driver magnet that can be pushed up, it will move magnet away before it attracts. It will work on a push only basis. Alternatively I change every second magnets polarity and remove the stopper. It still needs a lot of design work.

The wheel will turn anti-clocks,

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Such perpetual motion machines don't (and can't) work - but feel free to prove that for yourself.

 

[Sceadwian]

Ahh, that's what I thought, the design looked familiar. lmeissen, your idea suffers from the simple and fatal flaw that you can't extract energy from a magnetic field without destroying it, if such a device were to actually be able to function as a generator of energy the magnetic field would have to collapse or energy would have to be supplied from an outside force, such as in the case of a REAL electric generator, where the magnetic fields are used to induce electric currents in wire, however the ENERGY actually comes from the kinetic motion of what the magnets are attached to, not the magnets themselves.

 

[tcmtech]

Extracting work from permanent magnets is not hard to do. Making that work energy do something practical is whats the real issue.

Definition of work, energy, power and how each is qualified and quantified often comes down to semantics.
A simple example is two magnetic plates consisting of a number of individual magnets in like pole orientation are placed with the sum of the opposing poles of each plate facing each other.

The top plate will levitate above the other and can support a load greater than itself with out the two plates ever contacting each other and can do this for great periods of time.

Gravity is being resisted against and work is being done. The weight can be measured and the time can be measured and an equivalent electromagnetic system can be fashioned as well which can be used to accurately measure the energy being exerted to produce the same effects.

So do you consider the levitation effect and resisting gravity an exertion of energy or not?

Make some of the individual magnets so they can pivot and a few rotate and add some iron sheets in specific areas around specific magnets so as to be able to bend and redirect the magnetic lines of force in reference to a cam or some form of mechanical system that times the redirecting of the individual magnetic fields by the iron sheets and the levitating plate will then slowly and continuously rotate over the bottom plate while still supporting its own weight plus the weight of what ever was placed on it.

Energy is being exerted and work is being done.

And yes after some time the magnets loose their strength and the system stops moving and levitating. Depending on how strong and what type of magnet is used that time can however be incredibly long!

A one watt output that runs for 100k hours is still a good deal of energy. And consider that to recharge the magnets it takes far less than 100 KWH of power to do it!

SO is it over unity? I dont think so. Rather its just tapping into the subatomic energy of the magnetic materials atoms. The same energy that keeps every electron of every atom of the known universe spinning indefinitely!

(Or purely semantics of definition of work.)

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Make some of the individual magnets so they can pivot and a few rotate and add some iron sheets in specific areas around specific magnets so as to be able to bend and redirect the magnetic lines of force in reference to a cam or some form of mechanical system that times the redirecting of the individual magnetic fields by the iron sheets and the levitating plate will then slowly and continuously rotate over the bottom plate while still supporting its own weight plus the weight of what ever was placed on it.

Energy is being exerted and work is being done.

Sorry, but you're talking complete rubbish, such ludicrous ideas don't work - unless YOU can prove different, but no one else has ever done so.

 

[steveB]

Gravity is being resisted against and work is being done. The weight can be measured and the time can be measured and an equivalent electromagnetic system can be fashioned as well which can be used to accurately measure the energy being exerted to produce the same effects.

So do you consider the levitation effect and resisting gravity an exertion of energy or not?

I don't consider levitation an exertion of energy. Basically, energy is not expended to levitate, at least in principle, because energy (or work) is a force acting through a distance. Levitation implies force, but not work, since nothing is moving.

This is analogous to the classic discussion of whether you do work when you push on a wall. The answer is no, although you may expend wasted energy in your muscles while attempting to move the wall.

Really there isn't much difference between passive magnets levitating a mass, or a mass sitting on a table. Either way there is an upward force counteracting gravity without movement, nor energy expenditure. In one case the force is magnetic, and in the other case the force is electrostatic (i.e. repulsion of outer shell electrons).

 

[lmeissen]

Ahh, that's what I thought, the design looked familiar. lmeissen, your idea suffers from the simple and fatal flaw that you can't extract energy from a magnetic field without destroying it, if such a device were to actually be able to function as a generator of energy the magnetic field would have to collapse or energy would have to be supplied from an outside force, such as in the case of a REAL electric generator, where the magnetic fields are used to induce electric currents in wire, however the ENERGY actually comes from the kinetic motion of what the magnets are attached to, not the magnets themselves.

Thank you for your reply and especially the last part. This will change my thinking. I will try a different approach.

 

[tcmtech]

Sorry, but you're talking complete rubbish, such ludicrous ideas don't work - unless YOU can prove different, but no one else has ever done so.

Its the number one reason I keep to myself about the less understood scientific stuff I play with.

If you explain it in detail how to build it people will build it wrong and then still say it doesn't work.
If you provide a video people will still say its a fake or slight of hand work.
If you show them one working in person with all possible proof of working concept and all realistic ways of faking it accounted for they will still choose to not believe simply because you didn't give them one for free.

The smarter person just keeps it to them self and lets the experts think they know better.

Believe or disbelieve if you want. I stopped caring some time ago about bettering the world. I do things to better my life instead. No one has to understand how some things I do work or dont work other than me.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I notice in that post you no where claim to have built it? - which leads to to believe you haven't.

If you had you wouldn't be in these forums, you'd be lending Bill Gates money.

 

[cobra1]

i have spent a number of years playing with free energy devices, i can tell you now, you will never find one that works. i have done work with, magnets, electrolysis, heat, cavitation, and also cold fusion, i also breifly played with the star in the jar therory (basically a small sun underwater)

none of which yeilded free energy, i did once get a situation where i was able to produce more heat from the input given, but all its good for is heating things up, and only lasts for about 2 mins.

you would be much better off trying to develop a good renewable source, like i for instance am currently working with aluminium as a fuel. and so far i am getting quite prommising results.

oh and just thought i would point out here, what you have drawn appears to be a step backward from the pulse motor or bedini motor currently being experimented with at the moment.

 

[lmeissen]

OK, let me put it this way. I am not rewriting any laws; I am still in the boundaries.
Energy can’t be destroyed, correct? And you can’t create energy.
The amount of energy you will need to create a diamond for example, will be a lot. I think the amount of energy you need to crease a permanent magnet (Rare elements of the earth) will be much more.

Neodymium Magnets / Alnico Magnets/ ferrite / Neodymium (Nd-Fe-B) magnets / Samarium- Cobalt (Sm Co) magnets. From all these magnets you will have to use Samarium- Cobalt (Sm Co) magnets.

It is possible to use t Samarium- Cobalt (Sm Co) magnets…
This article will explain more…

Rare Earth Magnets are used in many devices that we use daily but there are few who know what exactly Rare Earth Magnets are. So here is an article that discusses the origin, types and uses of Rare Earth Magnets.
Rare earth Magnets are strong magnets, which are small in size but massive in strength. They are permanent magnets that consist of alloys of rare earth elements. They are names after these elements, which are found in the Rare Earth or Lanthanides part of the periodic table. Lanthanides are elements, which have an f-shell that is not fully filled. Electrons in such cases are strongly confined and restricted which makes them retain their magnetic properties and attributes them the potential to create a paramagnetic surrounding around them.

These magnets as stated earlier are stronger (almost fifteen times stronger) than any other ferrite or alnico magnets. These rare earth magnets are so strong that they can lift four hundred times their own weight. They are used in expensive electronic gadgets such as cell phones, computer hard drives and the like; and since they are expensive, to save them from chipping and breaking, these rare earth magnets are coated with nickel. This nickel coating also protects them from rust, makes them shiny and stain resistant as well.

Types of Rare Earth Magnets

Rare Earth Magnets broadly fall into two categories which are as follows:
• Neodymium (Nd-Fe-B) magnets- Neodymium magnets consist of neodymium, iron, boron and some of the transition metals. These magnets are the strongest and are also quite affordable amongst all the rare earth magnets. These are the types that are used in the hard drives of computer and speakers as they have the strongest magnetic field. These magnets are expensive as the cost of raw materials required is quite high and also because of the licensing of the patents. These magnets are also not very resistant to oxidation and temperature, thus they have to be coated with nickel or gold. Neodymium magnets are also corrosive but the main advantage is they give high-energy output compared to their size. These magnets can be used in microphones and computer printers and speakers.

• Samarium- Cobalt (Sm Co) magnets-Samarium cobalt magnets consist of samarium, cobalt and iron. These magnets are not as commonly found the Neodymium magnet since the latter is easy to produce compared to the former and also gives a better magnetic field in terms of strength though Samarium Cobalt magnets are resistant to demagnetization and also stable under high temperature unlike Neodymium magnets. These magnets are also resistant to oxidation but shaped magnets are prone to breaking and chipping when they are exposed to thermal shocks. These magnets can be used in satellite systems and traveling wave tubes

 

[cobra1]

thats fine so you will be using a more powerful magnet, how does this help???

at first glance i can see that the magnetic shield will be a problem, what material will you use for this??

 

[Sceadwian]

lmeissen they're also very heat sensitive.
Simple explanation of how permanent magnets are made.
The material is heated to a point where it's molecules will align with an applied magnetic field, and then cooled bellow that point, at which time the material will retain as much magnetism as the material will allow. Rare earth magnets are simply HIGHLY tweaked materials that allow a LOT of magnetism to remain, but they are brittle, highly finicky materials.

If you apply a strong enough magnetic field to a medium it will magnetize even after the field is removed even at the same temperature. I know, I've brushed some strong rare earth magnets up against some high retentivity steel at work and accidentally magnetized them.

None of these novel magnetic materials change the simple fact that you can not simply extract energy from these fields, the fields simply exist to interact with other components which actually generate the energy. The stronger rare earth magnet materials can make things more compact by creating a stronger interaction but they're not game changers so to speak, they can not produce energy from nothing and are nothing more than vehicles or means to the ends of transferring energy from one form to another. This transfer of energy is NEVER even at the best of times 100% efficient.

The effects you can visually see by spinning them near non-magnetic materials and other eddy current effects are impressive, but they are not magic, and they do not derive these effects without loss in energy from the system that makes them do what they do. Another simple example, in the case of a spinning alumium disc that levitates a magnet the energy that levitates the magnet is actually coming from the kinetic energy in the spinning disc. If you doubt me measure the natural slow down of the disc, and then measure it again with a magnet levitating above it, I guarantee the one levitating the magnet will slow down faster.

 

[Sceadwian]

Thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Read the four laws, they apply to ALL systems. It being called Thermodynamic law throws some people, but thermo means in it's essence energy. So the laws apply to any dynamic energy using or producing system, not just heat ones which is what most people associate the term thermo with. These laws are unbreakable, if you think you've broken one, you're wrong it's just coming from a place you don't understand yet. You can not ever under any circumstances get more energy out of a system than is contained within it. This should make perfect logical sense to any thinking person.

 

[lmeissen]

thats fine so you will be using a more powerful magnet, how does this help???

at first glance i can see that the magnetic shield will be a problem, what material will you use for this??

Samarium Cobalt magnets are resistant to demagnetization…. Or high resistant…

I think I will use iron for the shield. I know, the shield is wrong, will need to redirect the field not pointing at the main driver magnet. So far I know, you can’t isolate a magnetic field, you can only redirect it… I will try to get a 3d program to design it with.

This is only the concept, the actual design will look different.

 

[cobra1]

hmm, although you have the best intentions in the world, this just simply will not and cannot work, and if it does i certainly wouldnt tell anyone as you will have the MIB knocking your door, lol

i would put your knowledge to designing a renewable energy source, there are many renewable sources, also seen as technically free energy, (free as in cost)
free energy from thermodynamics is not possible unless you use fusion, which millions of pounds have been spent on and still they use more energy.

although you probably wont listen (i know you wont cause i also thought it could be done and spent years trying different methods) all you will end up with is a paperweight.

have you looked at the bedini motor?? it can run for months on a small amount of power and it can also charge another battery, but all in all. eventually all the power gets used up in the end.

to achieve an efficient design you will need a frictionless bearing, perfectly balanced, and put all that in a vacuum. that way at least you have a fighting chance if you do know something we all dont

 

[smanches]

Why not just get an already made motor/generator and leave the design up to them?

Or if you really want to design it yourself, why not look at how the other dynamos are designed. No need to start from scratch for something that was invented 100+ years ago.

 

[lmeissen]

Why not just get an already made motor/generator and leave the design up to them?

Or if you really want to design it yourself, why not look at how the other dynamos are designed. No need to start from scratch for something that was invented 100+ years ago.

This has not been designed 100 Years ago.