What to study work in control field (was: Dears)

[flinty]

First i'd like to introduse my self shortly,my name is mohamed, i am graduated from helwan uni
telecommunicatios and electronics department, work as a telecomm installation field engineer for ericsson equipment.

i wanna asking about somethigs

what can i do to work in control field ,do i study only microcontroller and plc??

and can i work with plc even if i dont study motors or and so...cuz i hered that PLC is made for power engineers only,

i wish i find some help in those qusitions,cuz i think am lost and dont know how i start.

 

[be80be]

If you can learn it you can do anything. If I wanted to do a new job I study all I could find about it and it always paid off. It's up to you if you want it bad enough go for it you can learn anything fast if you want it bad enough.

 

[panic mode]

what can i do to work in control field ,do i study only microcontroller and plc??

welcome to the forum and i hope you don't want to be a minimalist... "what is a bare minimum so i can get a job?".
such attitude is dangerous in many fields, i am sure you would not like your doctor to also have minimum skill and
knowing only how to wash up and hold knife before he is start doing surgery, am i right?

back to your question:

Knowing how to use PLC is a basic skill, it is a just one small step toward what you actually do with it (and this is what really counts).
It is just computerized tool to interact with physical world (automate some process, it could be machine or chemical plant, does not matter).
They are everywhere and things that are inseparable and/or commonly used along with PLCs are sensors, motors, motion controllers,
networks, HMIs, safety devices, robots, pneumatics, hydraulics etc.

Also for any design you need to familiarize your self with codes and regulations that apply.
If the product goes out of country, then you also need to make sure it will meet codes in that place as well.
Things you learn will define where you position yourself relative to others.

Nobody starts knowing everything but this should give you something to explore.
One way to find most wanted job expectations is to analyse requirements in job offers - check job postings.

 

[flinty]

i apologyze for my delay in answering.

1st-i wanna apologyze for my delay in answering cuz of my i work(i work nea to 15 hour/day some time more).

2nd-panic you are right about not to be minimalist,that is realy good point you make me keep eys on it . ThX alot.

then i see to qualified my self for studing PLC:

i alredy started electronics forward design course to refresh my memory with electronics componant (i think it will good Psychological factor i think i realy need that basics)

then i'll study Microcontroller wellthe MOst common types and how to deal with it.

then i'll study PLC very well.

then i'll study robotics and Motors.



but the problrm i'll find it and iam sure that it's exiect that the most of trainers can't connect between theoritical course and practical work,i mean he can teach you an equation using awhite board and marker,but he cant connect this equation with real life, So after studing alot you find your self need more qualifications, but i'll exeed that problem with sharing my quisitions here with you guys and read your posts and etc.

Now if you are reading that and see my schedule

Kindly advice.

thx

 

[panic mode]

lol, i am reading this but if you were to see my schedule...

 

[flinty]

lol, i am reading this but if you were to see my schedule...


They are everywhere and things that are inseparable and/or commonly used along with PLCs are sensors, motors, motion controllers,
networks, HMIs, safety devices, robots, pneumatics, hydraulics etc.
[/B]

that include your schedule??

 

[panic mode]

Last night I got home at 11:30PM after 1.5h drive and 16h work on site. took shower, ate something, then studied Latin for the rest of the night, eventually got to sleep 1h, worked whole day, had exam in the evening etc.. the previous post was just a 5min break after i was tired of declinations. how is your schedule?

 

[flinty]

Last night I got home at 11:30PM after 1.5h drive and 16h work on site. took shower, ate something, then studied Latin for the rest of the night, eventually got to sleep 1h, worked whole day, had exam in the evening etc.. the previous post was just a 5min break after i was tired of declinations. how is your schedule?

lol the idea is not in how long the post would take,it's in bringing my laptop out of the my packback and switching it on and login
i duno about your work invroument but you know that in egypt we dont get pay for the overtime ,and if you start work at 5 AM and they got no problem to bring you next day at 5 AM aslo if you finsihed your task at site at 1 Am from the that previous day .

 

[panic mode]

you turn your computer off? interesting...

in egypt we dont get pay for the overtime

if you don't get paid for overtime then you don't work overtime? so where is your allegedly busy schedule?

 

[flinty]

you turn your computer off? interesting...


if you don't get paid for overtime then you don't work overtime? so where is your allegedly busy schedule?

nah you dont get it it's not ptional there, they tell you in interview that we got only 8 ohurs work/day ,then you found alot of gay talking fter that ,and you also find alot dudes in your work agree with it ,so you cant say no or get fired

 

[flinty]

panic i frogot to ask you what is your job??if you dont mind

 

[panic mode]

i'm designing control systems for machines we make, also developing some of our own hardware and do ton of programming.
sorry to hear that job market is so messed up.

 

[flinty]

that's nice
but what are you use ?? microcontrollers or plc or both ??

 

[panic mode]

PC, PLC, Microcontrollers, Motion Controllers, Robots,...

PLCs (AB, Siemens, Omron, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, ...)
Robots (Fanuc, KUKA, ...)
Microcontrollers (Microchip, STM32, Zilog, Rabbit...)
SafetyPLCs (AB, Siemens, PILZ,...)

etc.

 

[flinty]

PC, PLC, Microcontrollers, Motion Controllers, Robots,...

PLCs (AB, Siemens, Omron, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, ...)
Robots (Fanuc, KUKA, ...)
Microcontrollers (Microchip, STM32, Zilog, Rabbit...)
SafetyPLCs (AB, Siemens, PILZ,...)

etc.

wow that's awesome,
you know that's confortable to me cuz ppl in egypt are believe that if you graduated from an electronics department you can only work on mucrocontroller and if you graduated from power you can work on plc

in my stauts iam graduated from communication and electronics department and i wanna work in control field so they tald me you will work in microcontroler only, and that was disturbing me.

but i decieded to study alitle motors and alot of plc and robotics.

thank you very much dude

 

[panic mode]

that would not work for me, i don't like to be told by others what i can or cannot do.

engineering programs here require any electrical or computer engineering student to take several programming courses (C, C# or Python, Java, then C and ASM for MCUs). with such knowledge one is well prepared for smooth start with PLCs. i am electronics guy and i learned to use PLCs on a job - you are just given task to do something and you better do it. maybe you work with brand A today and tomorrow you are given another job with brand B. same thing - you install software, install licenses, explore menus and start programming. when you hit the wall, you lookup manual. if that does not help, you call supplier that sold you the product - or manufacturer.

if you want to work with PLCs just get one and play with it. before you buy PLC check software prices first. some products have free software, there are also free hands-on seminars etc. you can also spend some money and take a course. some PLC software has simulator so you can test quite few things without even seeing real PLC. this is ok for one evening of fun (or frustration). usually free software is for low end products. Check AutomationDirect Click PLC, or Zelio for example. you can also try Step7 from Siemens, it will work for few days until free license expires. I think AB has some cut down editions of their software that is free (for smallest PLCs, maybe 10point Micrologix etc.).

also check starter kits, they come with PLC, programming cable and software. check eBay for used PLCs. I saved couple from being disposed of (when previous machines are decomissioned sometime everything is considered scrap). now they are collecting dust in my basement, waiting for me to put them into some project. i used one couple of times for Halloween to detect kids walking by and scare them with "noise" (fan) in the bushes or move ghosts around, flash some lights etc.

High end PLCs are quite expensive, just CPU (without any IO) can be several thousand dollars. to get working PLC one still may need to add several IO cards etc. For such product software is not free either (usually cost few thousands as well). One notable exception is codesys (codesys itself is free but addons are not). It can be used to program several different PLCs.

check this
http://thelearningpit.com/
http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?showtopic=16767&st=0&p=82667

 

[panic mode]

hardware trainers are usually something like this
http://www.ind-concepts.com/PLC_Trainers.htm

 

[flinty]

that was good
i'll try it.

but dude it is so programming depend more than hard w, or both of it or what??

i mean you may deal with large programms ??

you will have good expeirince with time or each day you find new cases??

last one you deal with any electronics componant like relays mm another word what is the type of switchs you deal with??

 

[panic mode]

every day is a new page, you never know what you may run into. often you get to use things you are familiar with, sometimes you get product you've never seen. either way, you still have to wire it and program it and make sure it works in next couple of days. many programs are quite large but not all.

for example month ago i was called to program one machine that competitor was struggling with and the time was running out. In 4 weeks I wrote some code while drinking lots of coffee:

PLC code (about 600 rungs of ladder logic, they wrote the main code with sequence of operation, interlocks etc. I created support functions, alarms, mode selection, handshaking and data mapping with HMI and robot etc).

On the robot created UserTech library as they wanted (never used UserTech before, this was two day job to learn and implement), then configured handshaking with PLC, wrote couple more functions to deal with I/O etc. and 256 programs for models (many of them are just copy of ones I created as template, so those will need to be changed when actual model is setup).

Next part was PC application acting as HMI and talking to PLC and Robot (this was a bigger part). Loaded all components, registered. PC app has menu, I/O monitoring and forcing, different modes of operation, recipe selection, recipe editor, alarms screen, database access, settings and options screen, three security levels with user editor, graphs, main screen with all the animated flows, gauges, valves, counters, bypass modes, calibration screen, utilities, process logger, report builder (with printing, selection or printer, page formatting etc.), own wallpaper selection and other gizmos.

And this is good example where reusing parts of previous code came in handy. Without bits and pieces from previous jobs this would be total b***ch. As you work, you try to make your own libraries or collections of code for whatever you are working on. then when the time comes you do your best to tie it all together on a next job. if you are going to write everything from scratch every time, you will never make any money. programming is maybe half of the job.

Not all time was spent on programming, couple of days were spent on some modifications of tanks and valves, setting up flowmeters (they mde their own because media is rather unique and highly abrasive so nothing on the market seem to stand up to it). few days was spent in testing, field I/Os (both robot and PLC have DeviceNet nodes for examples). Programming was maybe 80% on this job, but on average it is maybe 50%.

in general one project is something like this:
review project requirements, talk to customer, maybe visit plant and check the process, parts or whatever is involved, read plant specs and requirements, any drawings or whatever documentation there may be, select hardware for the job, release purchase orders, while waiting for parts do electrical diagrams and have customer review and approve, pass diagrams to electricians to build panels, check if all ordered material arrived and fix any issues, check if electricians have any questions or problems, maybe order couple of things, write programs, check if panels and machine are wired, is everything labelled correctly etc, do power-up check, download programs, configure networks, then do I/O check and calibration of every sensor etc., check safety circuit and interlocks, test manual controls, test alarms, test anything else like servos, VFDs, robots, etc., arrange safety inspection, arrange electrical inspection, carefully try stage by stage in auto cycle using step mode, continue debugging until everything works, do safety and electrical inspection (get safety stickers and safety reports), do auto cycle test in full auto (no step mode), call customer for demonstration, arrange for signoff, demo all the tests for customer and signoff, write operating manual while equipment is being disassembled and shipped to customer, arrange for several printed copies along with drawings and BOM, get to customer site and try local coffee, supervise assembly, arrange for hookup of services like power and air, wait for second electrical inspection (power hookup), do quick I/O check to verify that nothing was missed or connected wrong way, tie into customers systems (network, assembly line, whatever), test handshaking, verify and if needed repeat any calibration (due shipment), runs few cycles, verify that data logging and passing to server is working, train operators and maintenance, hand over files (drawings, spare parts list, BOM, manuals, programs etc), stay for production run and maybe do final touch here or there if needed. if everything is cool, make backup of everything, collect final signature, get to the mall to buy present for wife and kids then go home to work the next one.



not sure what you mean by mm and switches. there are many and different form and style.

panel mount - buttons, selector switches, estop buttons, capacitive or optotouch buttons, door switches, disconnects, motor isolation switches, motor reversal switches etc.
equipment mount - limit switches, inductive and capacitive proximity sensors, photo eyes and lasers (many types), reed switches (on actuators), flow and pressure switches, color sensors...
safety - gate switches, enabling devices like dead man switches, trapped key system (fortress etc), transpoder/coded switches, muting sensors,
pcb - tactile, selector, slide, etc.

 

[flinty]

thst was agood job ,
but what i need to know is are we need to study only plc and HMI and robot only or we need or we need also to study motors and machienes and those things that related to high power or high current stuff ??

and i'll be grade if you send me any book about an introduction to plc cuz each course center i went to it egypt just said to me that PLC is two levels each level is 3 weeks only and i see that is not enough you know