Toroidal Motor/Generator/PE?

[finf]

I have an idea to encase a toroid inside of a larger toroidal shell, and make the inner toroid out of disc magnets all attached to each other north pole to south pole, and then put a coil around the outer toroidal shell, which if energized with DC voltage with proper opposite polarity to the inner toroid magnets, would induce a magnetic field into the inner toroid magnets, causing the inner toroid to rotate. If the inner toroid rotates, then magnetic flux is induced into the outer coil, generating electricity. This is all theoretical of course... the big question is- if the outer coils were instead permanent magnets (donut magnets) opposing the inner toroid magnets, would the inner toroid move perpetually?

*note outer coils not designated in diagram, but you can see them, they surround the toroid on the left
the middle toroid is the inner toroid (inner toroidal "shaft")
**broken link removed**

 

[Oznog]

I'm not even going to judge whether it would move if power were applied.
The bottom line is no arrangement of magnets and coils will generate power without a slightly greater amount of mechanical energy being supplied to make it turn. There's no free energy. For one, basic rules of thermodynamics. For another, the way electromagnetic induction works, any time you load down a coil it produces a back EMF which mechanically resists the motion of the magnet relative to the coil. It doesn't just move through it effortlessly even if they don't touch.

Nice drafting skills, if you did this.
Be careful or the people who did Stargate SG1 are gonna sue you.

 

[Mr RB]

I'm not even going to judge whether it would move if power were applied.
...

I will.

It won't turn.

And as for "will it be a perpetual motion machine" that answer just got even easier when it won't turn.

 

[mzso]

I will.

It won't turn.

And as for "will it be a perpetual motion machine" that answer just got even easier when it won't turn.

But it should work with a different arrangement of magnets, right? If I'm not mistaken with N-S facing facing out from the center of the toroid ring.
Although that might be hard to manufacture.

 

[alec_t]

But it should work with a different arrangement of magnets, right?

Wrong .

 

[mzso]

Wrong .

That requieres further explanation. I fail to see why it couldn't be a homopolar motor.

 

[mzso]

This is quite similar:

 

[alec_t]

Second Law of Thermodynamics.
How do you plan to turn the arrangement you posted into a homopolar motor?

 

[mzso]

Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I fail to see how that's relevant.

 

[Tony Stewart]

Energy is neither created nor Destroyed and conservation of energy is guaranteed.

In this case magnetic energy stored in the permanent magnet is slowly drawn to propel the object.

The same would work in the torroid only if rare earth magnets had almost touching contact with the wire torroid as gap loss is high.

Eventually the energy stored in the magnets drain and the motion stops . Not much torque is available to do work, but if optimized you can drain the magnets faster and get more torque.

Nothing is pertetual. Even the atomic energy in the sun.

But in the short term. it appears to be perpetual.

 

[mzso]

Energy is neither created nor Destroyed and conservation of energy is guaranteed.

In this case magnetic energy stored in the permanent magnet is slowly drawn to propel the object.

The same would work in the torroid only if rare earth magnets had almost touching contact with the wire torroid as gap loss is high.

Eventually the energy stored in the magnets drain and the motion stops . Not much torque is available to do work, but if optimized you can drain the magnets faster and get more torque.

Nothing is pertetual. Even the atomic energy in the sun.

But in the short term. it appears to be perpetual.

I can't say I understand this "magnetic energy stored in the permanent magnet is slowly drawn" claim. By this logic permanent magnet motors (eg: BLDC) couldn't work at all.

 

[Tony Stewart]

I can't say I understand this "magnetic energy stored in the permanent magnet is slowly drawn" claim. By this logic permanent magnet motors (eg: BLDC) couldn't work at all.

No, BLDC supply power to the coil. In this example there is no external source. The push pull does not drain the magnets much. which acts like a lossless spring.

In the non-powered case. It is one direction only and supplied by the Back EMF from the magnet and motion. Thus is no AC magnet forces so it is not restored to the magnet like a spring being continually stretched... as it were.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Please note, this thread is five years old - and imaginary 'perpetual motion' machines (or any fairy tales) aren't suitable for discussion on these forums.

Thread closed - moderator.