Shifter Solenoid Motorcycle

[Pancho144]

Converting my Harley foot shifter to a Push Button Electric 12v DC Tubular Linear 25mm throw Push/Pull Solenoid because the "Kits" available are just IMO too dam high. So...I really need help in the winding of the Coils etc. I'll find a pic of what I wanna build.
I'm new here and would really appreciate any help, feedback etc, I ain't proud and mucho oblige.

 

[Papabravo]

What is the cost of the kit, and what is your budget to do this from scratch? Are there custom mechanical parts and fittings that will need to be acquired or fabricated? It seems like winding a coil will be the least of your problems.

 

[Reloadron]

Interesting project. My ride is a 92 Harlet Electra Glide. Never gave any thought to anything other than foot shifting. Going have to know the required force this covers some of that. Then you are not just shifting but up shift and down shift so guessing a solenoid with a center zero and capable of a plus or minus stroke. So bi directional stroke with enough force. Bi directional force solenoids normally use two coils if I recall correctly.

Ron

 

[Pancho144]

Kits run from $500 to $1200 so surely fab'n the coil by hand will be much more economical. I have a prob with my L foot and shifting up an down , is kinda iffy. Ya know, on a Motor you really need to have good control on all parameters to be Safe for yourself and others. Besides I'm kinda a tightwad an just get a kick outta beating the system an the rip offs.
The mechanics of it just ain't no prob an I also checked on just buying a Solenoid but they either will not just sell me one or they Solenoid manufacturers stock don't meet requirements.
Also, one Coil, switch Current one way it Pushes to Shift up , Switch Current the other way to Pull down, with 50 mm of work range, 25 mm when pushing to shift up, and 25 mm when pulling to down shift.. Take a look at the PDF I sent. You will have to scroll down a bit to see it.

 

[Papabravo]

I don't see how you can avoid spending 2-3x that amount to roll your own, unless you have a friend who can supply materials and will work for free. I could be wrong and maybe this is one of those times.

 

[shortbus=]

Have a look at the solenoids here, but you would need two of them, one for up shift and one for down shift. Don't think you'll find a single push-pull with enough stroke.

https://www.actronic-solutions.de/files/actronic/FTPROOT/Geeplus_Roehrenhubmagnete_mit_extraflacher_Kennlinie_Katalogteil.pdf

 

[Reloadron]

Also, one Coil, switch Current one way it Pushes to Shift up , Switch Current the other way to Pull down

Yes, and there are a few ways to go about reversing current. The first is what we call an H Bridge circuit which adds complexity, the second is a DPDT switch with a spring loaded momentary On in two positions and a center off. So it looks like MOM ON - Off - MOM ON. You also want a "Snubber" across your coil. The link I provided earlier will give you some ideas as to how solenoid coils are wound and you need to figure force since you have stroke figured out.

Newer bikes are loaded with electronics and that is why I mention using a snubber across any coil design you come up with.

Ron

 

[Pancho144]

OK thanks for the info...

 

[shortbus=]

Yes, and there are a few ways to go about reversing current.

But one problem, solenoids don't work like that, at least none I'm aware of. Most of them are pull only when they are that long of a stroke or that powerful. There are some small, low power ones that might but they are hard to find.

The shifters in his PDF look to me like they have two solenoids, they are surely long enough to house two.

 

[Pancho144]

OK thanks, will check it out...

 

[Reloadron]

But one problem, solenoids don't work like that, at least none I'm aware of. Most of them are pull only when they are that long of a stroke or that powerful. There are some small, low power ones that might but they are hard to find.

The shifters in his PDF look to me like they have two solenoids, they are surely long enough to house two.

I agree and in the link I am not dure if a single solenoid is used or two. My first thought was a single solenoid but used in two different mounting configurations. If a single solenoid is used we get to push and pull to up and down shift. Seems the thread starter plans to roll his own coil and mentions reversing polarity. I have never seen a solenoid with a center zero that could push or pull? The guys marketing it may have designed it for what it does. It's got a long tube.

You have Harleys so what is your take? Someone put a heel shifter on my bike and I keep wanting to remove the thing. I hate it. You use your heel to up shift and toe to down shift. Damn thing just gets in the way of my heel and I never use the feature.

Ron

 

[Papabravo]

Maybe that is why the guy that has figured all of this out can charge $500-$1200 for a kit. I've looked around and I can't find any useable pieces for anything like a reasonable cost. Never mind the time it would take to fabricate and test.

 

[crutschow]

To determine what strength solenoid you need, use a spring scale (fish scale) to measure the shift force required to move the shift lever, and how far the lever moves.
From that you can estimate the solenoid force needed over the distance the solenoid can move.

 

[crutschow]

Here's a pull solenoid with a 1" stroke (the same as the referenced bike unit) with a 10-22lb force that may be strong enough to shift the bike.

You would need two solenoids working front to front with a linkage that would allow one solenoid to work without moving the other,
Not sure how to do that.

It requires 52A so needs a healthy drive circuit, such as a large solenoid relay with 10 gauge wire for each coil.
You might be able to power it with large MOSFETs, if the inductive transients are well suppressed with diodes.

It ain't pretty, but it's relatively cheap.

Here are smaller ones (50% force about 4.25 lbs.), if you determine it can operate with less force.

 

[crutschow]

Here's a 1.5" stroke large solenoid that may also work.
You could connect two of them together head to head, each at the 1/2 stroke position, which would give a 3/4" stroke in either direction.
Connect that to a pivoted lever to get the stroke needed for the shift.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Or a simpler low tech solution - just convert it to hand gear change?.

A friend of mine did just that in 1972 - following been 'wiped up' by a car in 1971 (he was in hospital for just under a year, with a very badly smashed leg).

When he came out his leg would hardly bend at all, so he fitted a sidecar on an Aerial 500 he had, and converted it to hand gear change. Simply saw the end off the foot change, drill a hole through the end, and pivot a steel rod through the hole. Run the rod up to the tank, and have a lever and pivot there, easy peasy

He also moved the footrest, as his leg didn't bend, to the front of the frame tube, and rested his leg on that.

The sidecar was basically for support, as to start the bike he had to kick start it with his left leg, while trying to balance on the damaged right leg, which was incredibly weak - so he had very little to stop a solo bike falling over. Once it started, he swung his left leg over, then reached down and lifted his right leg up onto the forward foot (leg) rest he'd made.

To continue the story, his leg got stronger, and he was able to start riding solo again - then while riding a Triumph Trident 750 he was wiped up by a car again, damaging the same leg. This time it wasn't so bad, and he didn't spend long in hospital, and once the break had healed he found he could bend his leg a great deal further than he could previously.

As for the Aerial 500, he converted it to a sidecar trials bike, and competed at a high level in the UK and Europe, the only person riding an English bike.

 

[Pancho144]

I agree and in the link I am not dure if a single solenoid is used or two. My first thought was a single solenoid but used in two different mounting configurations. If a single solenoid is used we get to push and pull to up and down shift. Seems the thread starter plans to roll his own coil and mentions reversing polarity. I have never seen a solenoid with a center zero that could push or pull? The guys marketing it may have designed it for what it does. It's got a long tube.

You have Harleys so what is your take? Someone put a heel shifter on my bike and I keep wanting to remove the thing. I hate it. You use your heel to up shift and toe to down shift. Damn thing just gets in the way of my heel and I never use the feature.

Ron

Thankx...

 

[Pancho144]

Or a simpler low tech solution - just convert it to hand gear change?.

A friend of mine did just that in 1972 - following been 'wiped up' by a car in 1971 (he was in hospital for just under a year, with a very badly smashed leg).

When he came out his leg would hardly bend at all, so he fitted a sidecar on an Aerial 500 he had, and converted it to hand gear change. Simply saw the end off the foot change, drill a hole through the end, and pivot a steel rod through the hole. Run the rod up to the tank, and have a lever and pivot there, easy peasy

He also moved the footrest, as his leg didn't bend, to the front of the frame tube, and rested his leg on that.

The sidecar was basically for support, as to start the bike he had to kick start it with his left leg, while trying to balance on the damaged right leg, which was incredibly weak - so he had very little to stop a solo bike falling over. Once it started, he swung his left leg over, then reached down and lifted his right leg up onto the forward foot (leg) rest he'd made.

To continue the story, his leg got stronger, and he was able to start riding solo again - then while riding a Triumph Trident 750 he was wiped up by a car again, damaging the same leg. This time it wasn't so bad, and he didn't spend long in hospital, and once the break had healed he found he could bend his leg a great deal further than he could previously.

As for the Aerial 500, he converted it to a sidecar trials bike, and competed at a high level in the UK and Europe, the only person riding an English bike.

Man, what a story, your friend is one Bad Ass biker. Also, all the info is great, helps a lot.

 

[Pancho144]

Maybe that is why the guy that has figured all of this out can charge $500-$1200 for a kit. I've looked around and I can't find any useable pieces for anything like a reasonable cost. Never mind the time it would take to fabricate and test.

Exactly, the Suppliers want an exclusive on it !

 

[Pancho144]

Here's a 1.5" stroke large solenoid that may also work.
You could connect two of them together head to head, each at the 1/2 stroke position, which would give a 3/4" stroke in either direction.
Connect that to a pivoted lever to get the stroke needed for the shift.

Great info, thankx...