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project small generator 3

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by sciencetoolbar, Apr 4, 2017.

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  1. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    LG what kind of field is generating the small generator without the coil? (question no 1)
    ps. i.m not enywhere i just wish to have some other opinions to improve the small gen for the educational....this time we do not need numbers is true?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  2. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I dont understand the question?

    The coil is the generator......kind of. All fields in this case are simply electromagnetic, probably to be exact should throw in some tiny amounts of radio waves from the sparks in the motor etc. But that is nit picking to me :D.

    In this case exact mesauments from you are not that important, if you except the figures I give you. If you want to really explore what is going on then you will at least need to buy some magnet wire and wind your own coils.

    ................................................................................

    I wrote the above and forgot to post it, then CB sent me a wikipedia link, I am wading through that now
     
  3. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    I will try to discuss in simple terms, and assume all the arows from the specialists because I wish everybody understand our discussion beginers or not certified or not, doctors, engineers, lawyers, or simple people, .....etc . ( example NaCl - salt - yes it is easy - chemisty / C5H12 what is it ? alkane - chemistry organic but I prefer to say CH3–CH2–CH2–CH2–CH3 - pentane.... )

    So your opinion is for this particular case: the field generetated by the "rotative system" - of the "generator 1" movie - without the coil - powered by 5.1 V baterry dc (from the image attached - question no 1) in this particular case is an electromagnetic field ( one field created by the Dc motor - electromagnetic field - the Dc motor construction - coil and magnets generates EMF, and the second field is created by the rotating neodymyum sphere situated under the DC motor - electromagnetic field also wright ?)
    You already tell us with the input in this case of an external mobile batery at the rotative system of the generator without the coil - image attached - in this particular case - the EMF field is not dangerous more then it is the EMF created by a mobile phone in use.

    please corect us if we miss something untill now.

    to proceed to the question no 2.

    thx science toolbar
    PS we are waiting and other opinions it is not a private discussion just between me and LG
     

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    You missed the bit about Pentane being the simplest of the alcohols :D.

    Anyway the 'Thingy', turns out to be more than two fields at play. Or better still fluxes, I am at a stand still until I can do more coils, the ones I can wind at the moment are not big enough.
    There is noise until the thing starts to resonate, so dont assume there isnt any. But my little coil only puts out 0.14W, so its not a big deal. When I scale up I will stick the lot in a fine mesh cage and ground it. Not for my protection but I dont want to annoy radio operators if I start kicking out W's of noise all over the bands.

    The link I was given might help you, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling

    You have to jump around a bit to get a better picture, but the scope picture is pretty close to what you see. That is what I was calling odd, however it isnt as clean as that pic, you get all kinds of peaks on the wave form. Then again you have more than one thing going on. What will be really interesting is looking at the spectrum analyzer and scope just before everything syncs up. Although I would guess at the point just before it syncs its REALLY noisy, good job we got digital radio now :D.
     
  6. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    please tell us if we are mising something to proceed to the question no 2. ( where we will implicate the coil)
     
  7. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Where did you get 5.1V from? I thought you were trying 3.3V and 1.5V?

    Your on the right track with what I think is going on, but I think in reality it is a bit more involved than that. You have alot of magnetic fields all messing with each other, Until I can get more coils and mess with it some more I dont know if some of them are just by standers, or if they play a part.

    I dont know until I try but I am not going to be surprised if the motor is the key here with the magnet just making it easier to sync up. What we cant run away from is the fact it uses alot more power than it produces. Yes sure you can kick out alot of Voltage, but that isnt all that useful unless you can up the actual power as well. But then you still going to come back to the point that building a SMPS would do a better job more efficiently. However where it might just show some use is in wireless transmission of power.

    Again though I dont know enough about it to say if there is a better way. Well not at the moment I dont, but interesting it certainly is. From what I been reading this is normally done with LC tuned coils, I can understand where the L (inductance) part is coming from, but as we are not adding any capacitors (yet) I still find that a problem, seems odd it tunes in so easily. What I really want to do is try with a ferrite core instead of a magnet and compare, I want to know if the magnet plays a big part or not.

    Glad your into chemistry, might be useful with a algae,Magnesium battery :D. I been trying to find a link for Jim, I found a reference of an Oil rig being run from a Magnesium battery dropped into the sea by the oil rig. I think Jim used to work on oil rigs. But I cant find much info except the magnesium and stainless steel rods were literally put over the side and powered the Rig. As currents moved it took away the magnesium hydroxide etc. Theory being the magnesium needed constant Oxygen to work, hence looking at algae to supply the oxygen.

    Anyway thats off topic sorry.
     
  8. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    So effectively you actually have two magnets on the end of the motor! Is the round one glued on or anything? If you put a sleeve on that shaft and extend the shaft 8 inches or more with the magnets on the end, you will see a big drop off in Voltage.

    Its unlikely too many people will jump in, your kind of going down a blind alley. As a form of generator there are much much better ways, I want to look at it simply because it might help solve something I was interested in ages ago.

    I am being straight and not intending to belittle you. But as a generator this is like coming out of a cave with a oil lamp and declaring to people with electric light, that you have the technology to make caves light up at night.

    Sounds horrible but its pretty much bang on. On the other hand if you walk out the cave with the oil lamp and tell them you can cook raw meat with your light, then that is a different ball game. What I am saying is, as a generator its BAD, as an inductive coupler it looks promising.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  9. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Take a look at this pic in the link
    Capturer.PNG

    That is pretty much what you have, The power source and Oscillator and resonant circuit on the left, is pretty much all in the motor. On the right hand side your coil is the other resonant circuit and spot the diode? Yep your Led is the diode and load. That is what I was getting at when I said try a bulb, the led is rectifying things to some extent, however in the corn cob light case it dosnt work exactly like that, I think they are wired with some one way and some the other. I havnt taken one apart, but I would think you have a side on each cycle of the mains. That would explain the odd sine wave I was seeing.

    Spin a motor and it oscillates, it also has several coils in it. So can you see why i think you have more of an inductive coupled circuit than a generator?
     
  10. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    in the movie " generator 1" - we are using a 5.1 V baterry Dc in the other movies we are using 3.7 V batery ( " generator 2" and "generator 3 ") and in "generator" we are using a 1.2 V baterry - we have 7 public movies posted on our channel . We start with the begining. I didn't said I know something about chemistry.
    we will wait a littlte to proceed to question no 2 to have some others opinion about question no 1 in this particular case "generator 1"
     
  11. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Ok I am missing a question, what is question 2?
     
  12. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    question no 2 :
    Introduction.
    we are taking the rotative system discussed earlier, powered with 5.1 V baterry and aproach it near the coil (obtained from the motor of turntable owen.... or A4 laminator motor - 2 W or 4W 50 Hz/60 Hz, 2.5/3 RPM ) like we did in the movie "generator 1" - now the copper coil is charging ( the coil is the generator... as LG already told us).
    the coil is charging and generates our voltage, LG already told us a thicker coil will provide small Voltage and more AMPS.)

    can we use other "conductive materials" not gold :) instead the copper coil to generate voltage isn't it ?

    as far as I know for example inside the human body also we meets "electrical cell proceses", we are afraid not to modify them... similar like in the case of question no 1 ......just an example

    Is it dangerous for us the EMF created by the complete system in this new particular case that we have ?
    thx science toolbar
     

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  13. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    the round magnet is not glued it.s stay there because the screw plate is metalic - see" generator 1 " movie ( I already know the movies are borring someone told me to put some music or something ;))in the first part -and it.s not moving even the rpm are 26ooo. no glue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  14. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The copper wire isnt copper in the coil, well it is. What I mean is the copper wire in the coil is coated. You cant used uncoated wire because it would be a dead short.........Having said that...Inductors can indeed be as simple as a couple of turns of bare copper wire.

    BUT the coil your using will be covered with a coating of some sort. But if you want to use gold wire with a coating on, go ahead no problem. You will get different results, each metal has different properties, the one thing your not measuring is inductance. And inductance is a key player in this, make a coil same length of wire and same number of turns, but use say iron. the inductance will differ. The you get down to how big the middle of coil is, etc etc etc etc. Alot of variables that all play a role, although mostly the main effect comes down to a different resonant frequency.

    I am trying to get my head around some of the maths for you, but it is a bit of a slog. Oh and dont go near A Million Volts with the coil..... You start to get into X rays with coils and that kind of voltage :D.
     
  15. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    so..... at the first look, without to reproduce it in this particular case LG ...is it dangerous or not? ....we already have a question without an answer untill now... ( what kind of field is generating the sphere under the dc motor... no one answered ....maybe TCM will help us with the answer this time) lets find answer to all questions to proceed further
    thx LG for all the details regarding the coil, the copper wire -coil - is coated, and for presentation of others coated materials
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  16. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    No its not dangerous, it could be very noisy electrically. But I havnt looked at what frequencies it kicks out to know what if anything the noise would interfere with. If I get the numbers I am sure Jim would shout out what your likely to cause noise too. But the power levels we are at are small, I shielded mine simply because I live isolated but in a farming area. The last thing I want to do is interfere with tractor/farm radios, around here a tractor can be 5 miles from the farm or anyone, if something goes wrong they need the radio to get help, mobile phone coverage isnt great around here.

    ~3V shouldnt be too bad, radio interests me, so I am kind of conscious of making alot of noise. But no you are not going to glow in the dark! Not at the frequencies and power levels your at.
     
  17. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    let them implicate in to this LG I.m sure someone will discover something more useful than "a ineficient generator", and if someone tell us a personal opinion which in the future will be right or wrong it doesn't matter, we will get to the numbers which are not something special after aprox 1h and 20 min baterry of generator 2 - 3.7 v is empty (if the baterry is new and is charged at 100 % capacity)
    note: when the voltage is over aprox 1560 V - like in the generator 1 without load just the rotative system and the coil - the coil rejects the sphere.


    thx st
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  18. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    the question is why the sphere in this particular case it is more eficient? (with LG help, and others... we already note that more poles on the sphere (we used a 2 poles neodymyum sphere), a thicker wire coated -coil , low the temperature of the sphere, use a motor to rotate sphere with small consumption ex minidrone motor ofcourse not with the 26 mm sphere..... will hepl us to improve it)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  19. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Do you not think that a efficient inductive coupling method, is worthy then? Yeah ok as a generator it sucks, but it may well prove to be a reasonable way to inductively couple something. It offers the possibility to easily tune a inductive coupled circuit to resonance. Lets say we get this working with a small mobile phone vibration type motor, then it might have a niche applications. The main benefit I can see is its pretty easy tu adjust the motor speed and therefore change the frequency until it resonates.

    This has been my point from the start, as a generator you wont ever get near efficient with it. But change the application to inductive power coupling and just maybe its pretty useful. I get the feeling your so focussed on a generator that you feel anything else is less worthy. The ability to wirelessly transfer power over a given distance easily, is way more practical than trying to reinvent a square wheel.

    I doubt too many will publicly jump in on this. I suspect most are wetting themselves reading this. A few are helping behind the scenes, but while you focus on a generator your not going to get much help. Its like asking vets to bring your medium steak back to life!!! Instead ask a chef how to make it taste better ;).
     
  20. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    I didn.t said help me. it is educational ...... I'm interested about opinions, and untill know I get just a few, a lot of links...lets try without links except the movies of course. I mention that already I can try any dimensions and shape of neodymyum magnets because I don.t wish someone to waste his money. that and maybe something else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
  21. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Actually its not more poles, you still get two poles. The difference is the way the field is defined, you get a highly defined field with a oblong magnet and a chaotic field with a sphere. Now it could be the fact the field is chaotic means some part of that field, is always in resonance when you spin it at the right speed.

    A couple of things that keep being jumped over, and need sorting.

    VOLTAGE is not anyway to measure how good something is at being a generator. I showed you a video how a dripping tap can produce >5KV. So why dont we all leave the tap dripping and use tupperware dishes to generate our power? Because its just Voltage, it isnt useful on its own. You need power, power is Voltage X Current (A). You can not run away from this fact, its critical because it tells you something really important.

    The other big issue is free lunch............ If I PWM a motor to control speed, and if I dont use a flyback back or a MOSFET with a diode inside, what do I see on the oscilloscope?
    Lets say its a 12V motor and we are using 50% PWM to drive the motor at half speed. So we have 12V going in. Put the Oscilloscope across the MOSFET and what do you see? Well depending on frequency etc you could well see Voltage spikes in excess of 100V. :O

    But does that mean a 12V motor being driven at half speed makes a good generator? NO.

    This is why you HAVE to measure BOTH Current and Voltage on both sides at the same time. What you are ALWAYS going to see is something like the following.............

    Motor side

    12V in and using 500mA =6W of power being used

    Now on the coil side take a reading, you might see something like the following

    Voltage produced 200V

    Current produced 1mA
    So Watts of energy being generating = 0.2W!!

    As you can see your using 6Watts of power to produce 0.2Watts of power.................Put another way your wasting 5.8W of energy.

    Consider you can get a Switch Mode Power Supply to step up the voltage to 200V from 12V, they can do with an efficiency of something 80-90%. So to make 200V from a SMPS would use 12V and say 6W (just to keep numbers the same) to produce 200V @ 5.4W of usable power.
    While the figures are not measured it does show the principle. So the SMPS would be 27 times more efficient than your generator.

    Using a smaller motor wont help, use 1V motor if you like, yes you might reach 200V but you wont change much. Especially if you are inductively coupling, the motor if capable will still draw more power than the generator produces, and probably by the same or less efficiency.
     
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