# Numbers for SPDT relay icons

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#### BibaResto

##### Member
I know numbers for icons is so lame. However would someone/someones please put the numbers for a SPDT relay, 30, 85, 86, 87, 87a by each letter?

Yes this might be for my spoiler. I believe it is similar to a Schematic I have which has the same elements but both SPDT relays schematics are identical with each limit switch on either side of + on a SPDT switch . It just doesn't seem right. However, this one uses a basic on/off switch which might not work - unless 'off' automatically unwinds the motor.

##### Well-Known Member
The standard Auto numbers for the relay is the coil is 86 -85, with 30 as the common for the contacts, 87a is the N.C. contact and 87 the N.O.
Max.

#### BibaResto

##### Member
MaxHeadRoom78, apparently you're in the same boat as I am. That is, unable to attach the coil's numbers to coil schematic's which only have icons.

Perhaps there is someone out there who can help us solve this conundrum.

Should there be those who aren't sure what I mean by icons - it is similar to symbols.

I'd sure like to see if it is possible that the above schematic solves the situation or not. But I don't want to guess at which wire goes where.

#### Les Jones

##### Well-Known Member
I would not bother trying to identify the numbering system. I would first identify the coil with a multimeter. I would then Identify the NO contact as follows. Test which of the remaining three (After the coil.) show continuity between them. These will be the common anf NC contacts (But you do not know which is whic at this point) The one that does not show continuity is the NO contact. Now apply power to the coil. Test which of the two that had shown continuity now show continuity to the NO contact. This will be the common.

Les.

#### BibaResto

##### Member
Les, thanks, but I have not a clue which type of contact on a SPDT relay I need for a specific wire. Not to mention my multimeter just gave up the ghost.

I find it hard to believe that someone reasonably knowledgeable in relays couldn't look at the above schematic and know exactly which wire of the five available goes where. And, yes, I realize there are several contacts on this schematic which are common.

#### Les Jones

##### Well-Known Member
I've just Googled "automobile relay connections" an found this information which agrees with the information that Max has given you. I think I may have missunderstood your problem. I think now that your problem is that you do not understand the schematic. In the diagram in post #1 the coil connections are D and E which will be pin numbers 85 and 86 (It does not matter which is which.) The common contact is B which is pin 30. Assuming the relay is shown de energised (No power to the coil) then A is the normally closed contact (Pin 87A) and C is the normally open contact. (Pin 87)

Les.

#### debe

##### Active Member
What would help is a photo of the particular relay you are going to use from the bottom & side views. Theres just too many combinations of Automotive relays. In the Bosch range for example ones used by Ford are not interchangeable with ones used by GM, they look the same but are wired internaly diferent.

Or
Max.

#### KeepItSimpleStupid

##### Well-Known Member
Biba doesn't like my posts for some reason.

http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html

Recommended polarity
According to DIN 72552 the coil should be fed with +12V to terminal 86 and grounded via terminal 85, however in practice it makes no difference which way around they are wired, unless you are using a relay with an integrated diode (see more info on diodes below).
Not all automotive relays have the same pin numbering
You will notice that on the Type B layout pins 86 and 30 are swapped over compared with the Type A layout. The Type B layout is arguably easier to work with as the connected terminals are in-line, making the wiring easier to visualise. If you need to replace a relay make sure you use one with the same terminal layout as it is easy to overlook if you're not aware of the difference.
Pinout
See the article for details. So we really can't give you a pinout without the relay. Ohmmeter is a good suggestion.

Suppression diodes
Important: There needs to be a diode across the coil where the band points to the negative voltage of the coil.

Motor should short to ground --> schematic shows short to +12
Not a good idea (Les and Max, back me up) to have the motor "shorted" to +12 at rest. It's better to "short to ground".

Activation switch
The "switch" in the schematic could be SPDT (ON)-off-(ON) or ON-none-ON or even ON-OFF-ON () designates momentary. The schematic shows it as a ON-none-ON switch. Lots of ways to specify switches. SPDT is Single Pole, Double Throw, but more info is needed like momentary and center off.

Caution - limit switches
The automotive relays draw about 140 mA. Who knows what yours draw? A "good" number for current through a switch is 5-10 mA without fancy materials. The reason why I say good is because 10 mA is usually sufficient to remove any oxides from the contacts. 140 mA MIGHT be too high for the spoiler limit switch. There is no arc suppression across the switch. Thus a limited LIFETIME and premature failure is possible. It's obvious that the spoiler uses LOGIC level switching, which is usually a pull up resistor to +5.

Multimeter

#### KeepItSimpleStupid

##### Well-Known Member
bibaRestro said:
SS, keep in mind the spoiler switch on the dash in the SRT6 is just a dummy. A couple of things: What is the chime situation? Is it supposed to be a warning chime like a backing up one? I'm quite sure there is no chime for the spoiler;
http://srt-6.com/pdf/tsb/SB_23_040_04_Spoiler.pdf

Quote from above:

OPERATION
located directly below the spoiler wing in the spoiler
assembly. When the vehicle reaches 62 MPH (102
km/h), the rear spoiler deploys, giving the vehicle 40
Lbs. (356 Newtons) of downforce at 80 MPH (129
km/h). As the vehicle decelerates, the rear spoiler
starts to retract at a speed of 39 MPH (62 km/h). When
retracted, the spoiler nestles between the rear quarter
panels and the
ZH
_______________________________________________________
REAR SPOILER
2328108 - 3
The spoiler can be manually deployed at lower speed
using the override switch mounted in the center
console. Pushing the switch up raises the rear spoiler.
Pushing the switch down lowers the rear spoiler.
To prevent injury, the rear spoiler retracts in defined
steps to allow time to pull any hands or foreign objects
that may be in the path of the rear spoiler before it is all
the way down. If the rear spoiler gets disturbed while
retracting automatically or while retracting manually,
the rear spoiler is automatically driven up again and will
lock in the up position. During manual retraction, if you
let up on the switch, the rear spoiler will be driven to its
up position. When retracting the rear spoiler manually,
a single audible chime is produced to indicate to the
driver that the rear spoiler is in the fully retracted
position.
A warning signal (LED) on the spoiler override
switch illuminates, indicating a malfunction to the driver.
A malfunction that prevents the spoiler from deploying
illuminates a red warning lamp in the override switch.
rear liftgate window.

End Quote.

PS. I saw a Crossfire in the other lane a day ago. I saw a Lamborgini about a mile from the house this summer. I've seen one other sighting in the state. Vipers and DeLorean's are rare too.

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#### KeepItSimpleStupid

##### Well-Known Member
Biba:

I do have both of your emails. Just not ready to take this private yet.

Here's

Coutesy of a post at crosfire.org, here's the schematic of the spoiler/spoiler switch.

This schematic should, in my opinion, show the malfunction indicator, but it does not. I THINK it's lumped into all of the other malfunction indicators on the ECM shematic.

Note that the spoiler switch has an internal resistor. I can't see that on the pic you posted, UNLESS it's on the other side.

Down should have some resistance What is that resistance?
Off should have Infinate resistance and
UP should be a short.

I asked, how many wires on the switch. I can't even tell that from the pic you posted. In fact, I'm not sure it's even a spoiler switch. The spoiler switch looks like the second switch from the right, but why is it labeled OFF?

The LED could be a "naked LED" or the current limiting resistior could be on the switch PCB.

It doesn't even look like the switch can go in the vacant position and it looks like there are only two contacts (The added arrow in the top pic)?
The pins are labeled 2 and 6, so the connector would be expected to have at least 6 pins. (2) Illumination; (2); MF LED; (2) Funky switch or something else. Some could be vacant.

So, very, very confused.

#### BibaResto

##### Member
I was the one that posted the schematic above along with others. The real problem of trying to imitate the opening and closing of the spoiler is because it goes into the very dark hole of the Body Control Module. It might be possible that there are tons of lines of programing - along with all of those necessary electronic do-dads - for the various cycles.

I've barely used the dash switch to open and close the spoiler on the Ltd. I've certainly not heard a chime - but even with help, my hearing isn't all that great.

The switch has two wires - one for up, one for down. The switch looks just like the off switch (to help you keep the car on the road) but has a side diagram of the car with the spoiler extended and the other with no spoiler. The switch fits fine. Looking at the side view you see the upper far right black plastic with two wires 9which turn to the left when iinstalled. The black one which is built into the dash unit slips right under the wire section and connects two pins for the center LED. The pins are hidden behind the gray plastic section just to the left of where the black section plugs in. From the left edge of the black vertical plastic to the end of the push-in plugs is 1 5/16" - so yes, it is deep.

I'm having no luck with getting continuity on the switch/relays and have no reason why this is the case. Do you have any thoughts on a different type of switch other than the Spal type one I've been using? You did say that the relays I have are the 'correct' ones?

Getting the limit switches to work shouldn't be too difficult and you can't get much simpler than a wire for each side and common ground wire. How they know how and when to switch off poles is something else. But having the motor trying to go past where the stopping limit is - so it then rotates the outer portion of the motor, causing the contact on the low side to get bent, along with shorting out since the contact hits metal - makes the limit switches mandatory. However, we could use other limiting switches if that would help.

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