Need advice on powering LED and can't say what it is because of patent pending

[limited816]

First off I am here because my experience in electronics is limited at best.

I am developing a prototype which will use a small 5mm LED and need advice on how to set it up. It will need to be motion activated, and somewhere between 10mA - 25mA (best I can gather after doing some research online) so that the light will only remain on for a 60 second period of time then turn off. And I have heard a resistor might be needed, and perhaps a charge pump? I'm really only vaguely familiar with these parts so would appreciate any advice on if this makes sense.

And I do not yet have a source for any other the parts other than the LED at present. This may end up as a product I could consider selling but I just want to see if I can make it work. Oh and it has to be quite small. Can I guess at no more than 3/4"-1", diameter? I don't know the size of anything other than the LED lights


For the following which I found on Amazon. See link at the bottom:

• 5 mm LED lamp assorted kit: contains 100 LEDs of 10 colors (yellow, orange, emerald green, blue, white, red, green, warm white, purple and colorful flash)
• Head type: water drop shape round and clear heads; Forward voltage: R/ Y/ G/ O 1.8-2.0 V; B/ W/ WW/ E/ P 3.0-3.2 V; C 3.0-3.4 V; Max. Current: 20 mA

https://www.amazon.com/eBoot-Pieces-Emitting-Diodes-Assorted/dp/B06XPV4CSH/ref=asc_df_B06XPV4CSH/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167146990738&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9590913608500631674&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9052116&hvtargid=pla-369941417757&th=1

Don't know if this will be of any help to me but I did find this tool: https://ledcalculator.net/#p=3&v=1.8&c=10&n=1&o=w

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

You need to make a lot of choices - first off, what power source are you planning using?. Then you need a micro-controller (to do the timing etc.) and a motion sensor (PIR module).

Small size requirement may well make life difficult.

 

[Papabravo]

Your best bet will be to use a small (8-pin) microcontroller to monitor the sensor, light the LED when required, and time out the interval.

All that aside, I strongly urge you not to get involved with the US patent system. Your chances of financial gain would be better if you sold crack cocaine on the steps of the Phoenix Police Station. You will end up losing everything when the folks with deeper pockets than yours infringe your patent and DARE you to sue them to enforce your rights. It is a losing battle that you cannot win. You will lose your truck, your dog, and your wife and become the hero of a popular country song with absolutely nothing to show for it.

 

[For The Popcorn]

I slightly disagree about the patent system. If somebody violates your patent AND you decide to file a lawsuit, you are likely to spend vast sum of money and still lose. The amount of money you lose depends on how hard you try to fight the violation. If your patent has been violated by a well-financed business, they can afford more lawyers than you.

Additionally, a patent protects you in the country in which it was filed. If you want protection in other countries, you need to file for patents in those countries too.

One suggestion – have you researched existing patents? Large libraries, or more likely University libraries, have "Patent Gazettes" (in the US) that have all issued patents in them. Search by classification and look for similar things that have been patented. Doing this research yourself may save you some money with the patent attorney.

If you do have a patented idea, if it's something easy to understand and cheap to make and sell, your best bet is to skip the patent, design your widget and sell them before somebody copies your idea. If it's something more complex that's difficult to replicate and has a high selling price, then a patent may be worthwhile if you're well capitalized.

 

[danadak]

Motion detection :

Play a Tune From ATTINY85 When Motion Detected

Play a Tune From ATTINY85 When Motion Detected: As you can see from the video, a tune is played when movement is detected. The program to do this runs on an ATTINY85 which is a very small microchip with great processing capabilities. Movement is detected using a PIR sensor and the tune is played…

www.instructables.com

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

PIR Sensor: Overview, Applications and Projects - Latest Open Tech From Seeed

PIR Sensor is short for passive infrared sensor, which applies for projects that need to detect human or particle movement in a certain range, and it can also be referred to as PIR(motion) sensor, or IR sensor.

www.seeedstudio.com

Regards, Dana.

 

[Papabravo]

I slightly disagree about the patent system. If somebody violates your patent AND you decide to file a lawsuit, you are likely to spend vast sum of money and still lose. The amount of money you lose depends on how hard you try to fight the violation. If your patent has been violated by a well-financed business, they can afford more lawyers than you.

Additionally, a patent protects you in the country in which it was filed. If you want protection in other countries, you need to file for patents in those countries too.

One suggestion – have you researched existing patents? Large libraries, or more likely University libraries, have "Patent Gazettes" (in the US) that have all issued patents in them. Search by classification and look for similar things that have been patented. Doing this research yourself may save you some money with the patent attorney.

If you do have a patented idea, if it's something easy to understand and cheap to make and sell, your best bet is to skip the patent, design your widget and sell them before somebody copies your idea. If it's something more complex that's difficult to replicate and has a high selling price, then a patent may be worthwhile if you're well capitalized.

A disagreement without a significant difference. If you decide not to sue that is equivalent to not having the patent and letting them, get away with stealing your ideas. Paying to get the patent and not suing to enforce your rights is equivalent to lighting your cigars with wads of $100 bills.

 

[For The Popcorn]

No, you implied that you could lose everything. Not true. You might not successfully defend your patent, but you are in control of the bleeding. Nobody is going to sue you for defending your patent.

 

[Papabravo]

No, you implied that you could lose everything. Not true. You might not successfully defend your patent, but you are in control of the bleeding. Nobody is going to sue you for defending your patent.

Losing everything refers to what you stand to lose if the litigation goes on for years. Essentially you may have sunk costs that cloud your judgement on when to "stop the bleeding". You may even win a pyrrhic victory. I have personal knowledge of at least one case where this happened.

 

[crutschow]

Look up Philo Farnsworth with his television patents versus RCA.

 

[Papabravo]

Look up Robert W. Kearns who won his case against two of the big three for the intermittent windshield wiper. It cost him his marriage.

 

[limited816]

Motion detection :

Play a Tune From ATTINY85 When Motion Detected

Play a Tune From ATTINY85 When Motion Detected: As you can see from the video, a tune is played when movement is detected. The program to do this runs on an ATTINY85 which is a very small microchip with great processing capabilities. Movement is detected using a PIR sensor and the tune is played…

www.instructables.com

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

PIR Sensor: Overview, Applications and Projects - Latest Open Tech From Seeed

PIR Sensor is short for passive infrared sensor, which applies for projects that need to detect human or particle movement in a certain range, and it can also be referred to as PIR(motion) sensor, or IR sensor.

www.seeedstudio.com

Regards, Dana.

Dana, many thanks for the url's. After following I see that the mini PIR motion sensor module is 0.75". Is that to your knowledge the smallest PIR available? If so then I'll have to upscale my project size

Thanks

 

[limited816]

Your best bet will be to use a small (8-pin) microcontroller to monitor the sensor, light the LED when required, and time out the interval.

All that aside, I strongly urge you not to get involved with the US patent system. Your chances of financial gain would be better if you sold crack cocaine on the steps of the Phoenix Police Station. You will end up losing everything when the folks with deeper pockets than yours infringe your patent and DARE you to sue them to enforce your rights. It is a losing battle that you cannot win. You will lose your truck, your dog, and your wife and become the hero of a popular country song with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Papabravo, (PB)

So you are saying that the mocrcontroller can control those 3 responses? I'll have to order some material and then see if it is to my liking. Once that is done, I'd like to follow up on minimizing the size of components. I am looking at keeping the size to a maximum of 0.75"diameter, if possible

 

[Pommie]

To just get a prototype working I would suggest an Arduino Nano and a PIR sensor from somewhere like, https://www.futurlec.com/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?search=pir
Everything can be powered from USB and all the software is free.
As a proof of concept it is probably the easiest (and cheapest) way to get started.

Mike.
Edit, once proven then an 8 pin pic (DFN-8 - 3mmx2mm) can be used.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Papabravo, (PB)

So you are saying that the mocrcontroller can control those 3 responses? I'll have to order some material and then see if it is to my liking. Once that is done, I'd like to follow up on minimizing the size of components. I am looking at keeping the size to a maximum of 0.75"diameter, if possible

You seem to be ignoring any power supply considerations?.

But for small, check out MicroChip PIC's, which are not only the most popular - but make a 6 pin SM one, which would be enough for your needs.

But initially (as Pommie says), use a larger device like a Nano or Uno for proof of concept - then worry about size.

 

[Pommie]

but make a 6 pin SM one, which would be enough for your needs.

It maybe but (s)he's not told us their needs so anything is a possibility, also, 0.75" (18mm?) diameter (2 or 3D still not known) would require the PIR electronics to be part of the design. The PIR sensors I linked earlier may provide what is needed (circuit wise) but without knowing the application we're just guessing.

Mike.

 

[danadak]

Dana, many thanks for the url's. After following I see that the mini PIR motion sensor module is 0.75". Is that to your knowledge the smallest PIR available? If so then I'll have to upscale my project size

Thanks

If you look at the link on post #13 those are the only sizes I am aware of.

Alternatively a doppler radar sensor potentially smaller -

YouTube

Note if you use an Arduino Nano or Uno for proto, you can use those boards
to program an ATTINY13 or ATTNY85.

How to program the ATTINY13A with Arduino Nano

This post describes the steps necessary to program the ATTINY13A micro-controller with an Arduino Nano.

medium.com

Regards, Dana.

 

[limited816]

You seem to be ignoring any power supply considerations?.

But for small, check out MicroChip PIC's, which are not only the most popular - but make a 6 pin SM one, which would be enough for your needs.

But initially (as Pommie says), use a larger device like a Nano or Uno for proof of concept - then worry about size.

My apology, I have forgotten to mention I am looking at a CR2032 as the power source.

Update---after looking at the PIR motion sensor the smallest one requires 3.8-24v and a CR2032 is not sufficient at 3.0v.(https://www.futurlec.com/Mini_PIR_Module.shtml)

It appears that since all AA, AAA, C & D batteries only supply 1.5v that none of them will be sufficient. Not sure where to go from here.

And thank you on the resource for microcontroller 6-pin

 

[Diver300]

A CR2032 will certainly power a small LED for 60 seconds at a time.

The voltage of a CR2032 is close to the voltage of a white LED, and some cheap lamps will just connect them directly. The problem with that approach is that the brightness is very dependent on how new the battery is, and the battery can't be used down to completely discharged, which is about 2.5 V, because it won't have enough voltage to turn on the LED.

A proper current control circuit and boost regulator could easily give 5 times the life for a particular brightness.

The other issue is the power to run the PIR detector. I know that those are quite low, as there are battery powered PIR lights made already, but you do need to make sure that the battery life even without turning the LED on is enough for your application.

 

[dougy83]

Update---after looking at the PIR motion sensor the smallest one requires 3.8-24v and a CR2032 is not sufficient at 3.0v.
...
It appears that since all AA, AAA, C & D batteries only supply 1.5v that none of them will be sufficient. Not sure where to go from here.

If you can't get a PIR module that will operate directly off the battery, then you can use a DC-DC converter, e.g. a inductor-based boost converter, or a switched-capacitor/charge pump. The QX23xx series look alright; they don't need many support components, are cheap, small, and have low no-load current of ~15uA. ref: https://www.lcsc.com/search?q=qx230

 

[rjenkinsgb]

It appears that since all AA, AAA, C & D batteries only supply 1.5v that none of them will be sufficient.

Also note that they progressively drop to around 1V as the discharge, over their useful lifetime.
To guarantee 3.8V minimum, you would need four cells.

A 9V battery would work, that would still give at least 6V at the end of it's life.

As Diver says though, you need to allow for the permanently ON PIR module and the current that takes.
The data says "<1mA" so allow 1mA permanent load, and work out the possible battery life from that before choosing a power source.

A good named brand alkaline PP3 / 1604A battery has a capacity around 550mAH.
That means the PIR would run for 550 Hours, not allowing for alarm / LED triggers and the power that takes.

That means a battery life of just over three weeks.


In comparison, a high quality 2032 lithium cell plus a boost converter (and not allowing for the power losses in that) would be roughly equivalent to a 6V 100mAH battery, so a maximum life of about four days.


ps.
Re. patents:
To be valid (even if issued), a patent must contain new and original work, and be more than an incremental change to an existing concept that a normal expert in whatever field could reasonably make.

Any "prior art" that does the same or a near enough similar thing - either real items or even concepts out of novels or SciFi - means the patent is not an original invention and can be invalidated.