Is this non-isolated mains LED bulb illegal?

[Flyback]

The following 13.5W LED bulb is mains connected but is it non-isolated?...........
**broken link removed**

....At time 20:52 of the following, you see it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLlpoZaBx-g

..also, if you view from time 6:34 of the above video , you can see that the MCPCB that contains the led circuit appears to be lying right on the heatsink


Is the electric circuit used as on page 15 of the following pdf? ........

SSL2103 pwm controller from nxp
https://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/SSL2103.pdf

 

[jpanhalt]

The following 13.5W LED bulb is mains connected but definitely non-isolated...........Is this illegal?
**broken link removed**

I'd say it is legal , but you probably want an answer from someone who knows a little about law:
http://lawyers.findlaw.com/?DCMP=GOO-DIR_LawyerGenExp-FreeConsultation&HBX_PK=free legal consultation
http://www.lawhelp.org/
http://www.avvo.com/free-legal-advice

In other words, if you have a question about legality: 1) Whys ask it here; and 2) Laws vary from country to country, and often even within a country. You need to tell us relative to which jurisdiction your question is asked.
John

 

[Flyback]

The bulb appears to marketed in USA by feit?, as in the top link

 

[jpanhalt]

Looks like it is UL listed, but not FCC approved. https://led-light-bulbs-review.toptenreviews.com/

John

 

[ronsimpson]

What is the problem? ISOLATED? A incandescent bulb is not isolated. Break it open an you could get shocked.
I have designed products that are not isolated. They are in a isolated box.
I can't see the problem at 6:34. By 6:55 where he puts the plastic back on I can see that the heat sink is covered up.
The heat sink probably is isolated but not well. Isolated in that it is not connected to any of the LEDs. The heat sink could be connected to neutral, not line, but probably not connected to anything.
I am surprised as to how easy the plastic comes off. I don't remember a requirement that the box be hard to get into. I do remember a requirement that the capacitors inside must discharge down to a safe level faster than the time it takes to get into the box with hand tools.

illegal?

The socked you screwed the bulb into is not 'safe' by today's standards. It is grandfathered in. By today's standards, a socket that you can stick your finger in (or even a pencil in) is not 'safe'.
The socket is dangerous. Complain about that. How many of us have stuck something into a live socket?

 

[Flyback]

the external heatsink, ... is it effectively a few microns away from a mains circuit?....are you supposed to have 8mm min of separation?

heres one for you........with this one, are you are a few microns away from mains live?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keaE7QTKTYE
....remember the mains is not always 120VAC or 230VAC.....for some 6 minutes per month average, that mains spikes up to 1KV... is that why we need this isolation barrier?

 

[ronsimpson]

which you will grab hold of

I think you can not touch the heat sink. I know you disagree.

is effectively a few microns away from a mains circuit

I measured a PCB and I get 0.25mm approx.

or some 6 minutes per month average, that mains spikes up to 1KV

1kv diodes are commonly used on the power line (1N7007) and they do not fail. OR not 1000s of times a month.

I am working on an isolated product now. It withstand 1200V all day long, 2500 volts for a minute and 5400V spikes.
The clearance is 8mm.
The Creepage is 8mm.
The spacing through insulation is 0.014mm.

I have designed many power line transformers and and the isolation tape is not very thick.

 

[Flyback]

when you grab the product, can you do that and avoid grabbing the heatsink?...the heatsink is most of the external body of the bulb.
I agree that tape isn't thick, but its special tape for the purpose.

 

[tunedwolf]

According to the datasheet for the lamp, it has been independently tested by UL and has obtained FCC approval (both logo's appear at the bottom of the data sheet). If the design is good enough to achieve both a safety rating from UL and FCC approval for use, then I would say it is perfectly legal for them to market it. Moreover, anyone using such a lamp, or any other lamp for that matter, would be wise not to be touching it when it is powered up, irrespective of whether there are bits on it that are bare metal, and I'm quite sure it will say so somewhere on the packaging. If you are so inclined and concerned enough, there's nothing to prevent you from asking the manufacturer for a copy of the UL safety certification and FCC approval documents relating to this lamp. I'm sure they will be happy to clear up any misunderstanding you have

 

[Flyback]

thanks, and seriously, if people can get away without doing mains isolation in a led lightbulb, then nobody will do it.
Mains isolation is a pain.
-Because it means using an optocoupler, with its horrendous pole frequency, which makes feedback loop control far more awkward.

basically, if someone gives you a 1 inch think block of alu and says "hold this and touch a live mains conductor with it"...you going to say "no way".........well, then they give you a few microns thick wafer of plastic and then say, "ok you can put this wafer of plastic between the alu block and the mains conductor, and then touch the mains conductor"....youre still going to say "no way"......and rightly so...just imagine, even if that wafer didn't rip, imagine the capacitive shock that you could get through it, specially if you accidentally touch when the mains has a 1kv spike on it.

The 1KV diodes you speak of don't fail, because a 1KV diode actually is built robust enough to withstand overvoltages up to a point.....but eventually, these kind of things do fail, after several years, such is the reason why line connected smps's fail.

 

[tcmtech]

Mains isolation is a pain.
-Because it means using an optocoupler, with its horrendous pole frequency, which makes feedback loop control far more awkward.

So what exactly is your point here anyway? Just because you have difficulty with the concept of how something is designed and built does not mean its illegally made let a lone a manufacturing difficulty for everyone else.

They make millions of tiny fully isolated SMPS for cell phone chargers and everything else without difficulty that have universal inputs of 85 - 265 VAC going to any number of DC voltages and current capacities.

My wife has one for her Iphone that takes 85 - 265 VAC 50/60 Hz and puts out a well regulated 5VDC 1 amp and the whole unit is less than one cubic inch in volume including the built in USB port. Total cost for a new one on line is less than $5.


Are you sure these LED light power supplies are in fact non isolated at all and not just regular mini isolated SMPS to begin with that just happen to have a specialized output for driving high powered LEDs?

 

[Flyback]

I agree you can do it cheap with bias winding regulation, but that's not an accurate or efficient way to do it, as we expect in lighting, where we demand high standards of efficiency.
If secondary side regulation is needed, than that means a bulky opto package being used, and nobody would choose that.

 

[tcmtech]

What do you mean by bulky opto package? I have seen surface mount opto isolators the size of a grain of rice in SMPS.

They are so small they can easily be mistaken for a capacitor or resistor.

 

[Flyback]

the isolation barrier must be 8mm.....thus at least one dimension in the opto is that far.

 

[tcmtech]

according to whom?

I have lots of mini SMPS circuit boards that don't have anywhere near that distance separating the two sides of the system and they are all UL rated with many of them made here in the USA.

Also as others have mentioned a feedback loop built into the tiny transformer will give a reasonable output voltage regulation with isolation as well which in an application such as this where the end load is application specific this sort of design would work just fine.

To me this whole thread seem like misplaced fussing over things you don't agree with in design not with the actual illegalities of any manufacturers products.

 

[Flyback]

if you look at the schematic in the top post, it is using a buck, there is no transformer in that particular case.
8mm isolation is the standard for mains connected smps, in USA, Europe, UK and Australia.

 

[jpanhalt]

I agree you can do it cheap with bias winding regulation, but that's not an accurate or efficient way to do it, as we expect in lighting, where we demand high standards of efficiency.
If secondary side regulation is needed, than that means a bulky opto package being used, and nobody would choose that.
thy are definitely non isolated, as the video clearly shows.

But that doesn't address the question several have alluded to: Why are YOU worried about it being legal?

First, you are in the UK, last time I remember. This is in the US.

Second, I am not sure a device itself can be legal or illegal. I have never heard of a device being tried in court and found to be guilty. In other words, possessing, owning, and/or operating a device may be illegal, but the device itself is not. Albeit, in casual conversation, one will hear the device referred to as illegal.

Third, for the sake of argument let's assume the device is actually illegal. What are YOU going to do about it? Have you considered informing the manufacturer of your concerns? In the US, failure to report a crime can be a crime itself. Have you reported your concerns to the Attorney General (Eric Holder)? Here's how to contact him at the Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/contact-us.html

In other words, the device is UL listed and is being sold in the US. If there are any liability issues, they will be addressed in accordance with our laws. I can't fathom why this is such an important subject to you that you posted the same question on at least three different electronic forums. If you can answer that question, maybe something productive can come out of this.

John

 

[Flyback]

the point is, if they can do this, then we will too, because its cheaper and easier....but if we're going to get sued for doing it, then we won't do it.

 

[tcmtech]

Cheaper and easier does not make it wrong just because you are not familiar with the rules/regulations they may be following that make their design legal and tested to meet or exceed the required safety standards.

Fiet is a huge world wide lighting systems manufacture so I have very strong suspicions that they do in fact have their own lawyers and technical staff that make sure every product they sell meets or exceeds the requirements that the governing safety bodies require of them in whatever market they sell their products in.

They know the laws and they know the loopholes/exemptions/special conditions clauses in those laws.

 

[Flyback]

a large number of these products have the full 8mm isolation.....I am sure they would be most interested to know they don't need it.