Is this non-isolated mains LED bulb illegal?

[tcmtech]

Patent infringement.

 

[Flyback]

think of the thickness of the insulator on top of mcpcb.
Now think of grabbing a sheet of that, and touching live mains with your finger the other side of that microns thin sheet.
You'd be hoping there was no rip or tear.
You'd be hoping that you didn't get at least a capacitive shock.........and if a 1KV line transient happened at the moment of your touch, you would get a significant tingle.
Ive touched the plastic outer case of 7/0.2mm wire containing live mains and got a capacitive shock from that.......this has happened to me regularly, as I work quickly,and don't take full precautions when I work with live mains. I am well used to the zap.....but if the zap happened at a 1KV transient, I might think it was more than a zap.

 

[tcmtech]

So what exactly are you looking for here in this thread other than to just troll the subject to death due to your lack of understandings/familiarity of what regulations allow for Feit to design their lighting systems in a way you do not agree with?

 

[JimB]

Just another trolling rant in support of the inductively coupled LED lighting system which our esteemed OP evangelises at every available opportunity.

JimB

 

[ronsimpson]

See the pictures.
HS=is the heat sink.
There are two types of insulation.
.....A clear dome.
.....White plastic with vents that covers up the heat sink. The white is not a heat sink. It is plastic.
PCB..... It has isolation between the LEDs and the underlying aluminum. There probably is primary to secondary isolation here.

I have had my products tested by UL, CSA, VDE etc. There is no way a person can touch the power line. OR even get close to the power line.

think of the thickness of the insulator on top of mcpcb.
Now think of grabbing a sheet of that, and touching live mains with your finger the other side of that microns thin sheet.

That same insulation is in every power line switching power supply with a transformer. Your cellphone charger has the same insulator. Your plug in the wall CD player....
The last transformer I designed with stood 10kv for 10 minutes with out failure. If you knew how thin the layers of insulation is you would be more unhappy. Just because you don't understand UL or insulation does not make it illegal.

 

[Flyback]

is below the white plastic the heatsink?

Regarding offline smps transformers.....Page 24 (and other pages) of this shows what the primary to secondary insulation is...its 3 layers of part number 1296 (polyester tape) from 3M
http://www.powerint.com/sites/default/files/product-docs/an18.pdf

......3 layers of that special tape...does that equate to much more than the bit of insulation between the mcpcb top and base. There is also the creepage to think of...

 

[ronsimpson]

You and I see things so differently.....Im out.

 

[jpanhalt]

Here is a quote from another forum by "eem2am" with exactly the same question as posted here.

"This bulb is unquestionably illegal......maybe they submitted a different version for approvals testing......the following shows what is adequate insulation...as in pri-sec insulation in offline transformers."

I wonder why eem2am, aka Flyback and treez, found the need to ask that question here, if he unquestionably knew the answer? I am hoping the OP will help us understand.

John

 

[tcmtech]

To me the substrate (Round disk) that the LED's are mounted to looks like a foil backed piece of ceramic which if so in itself would provide more than adequate electrical isolation from the circuitry to the heatsink without compromising any thermal transfer efficiency.

 

[Flyback]

..its not foil backed ceramic, its mcpcb, its alu all the way through, apart from a few microns of insulator

 

[tcmtech]

And your point is?

You are aware that even the lowest rated insulating materials they use on MCPCB (metalized paper) is rated at 500< volts per mil and the thinnest insulator ratings I could find for any listed MCPCB was 3 mils which give it a minimal rating of some 1.5+ kV isolation just on the MCPCB itself?

What I am finding online is that the vast majority of MCPCB's designed specifically for line powered LED type applications have isolation voltage ratings of some 3000 - 7000+ VAC which is ~15 - 30 times the typical line voltages are anywhere in the world!

The next thing I see in the video is that the heatsink is not bare aluminum but appears to be coated in an epoxy type coating which in itself adds even more insulation between the lines and the person holding on to the assembly. BTW typical epoxies also have at least a 500+ volt per mil dielectric rating and most tend to naturally cover to at least several to 10's of mils thickness when cured.

Seriously what school did you go to for electronics education anyway?

 

[Flyback]

in post #26, in the powerint.com link there, you see details of creepage requirements.......
Inside an smps transformer, you have margin tape specifically used to give the creepage........or sometimes they use triple insulated windings.

I just googled 'dielectric strength for led mcpcb' and don't find anything

 

[tcmtech]

Oh well.

 

[Flyback]

Thanks again for your interest in Feit Electric. We will be in contact with you shortly. Have a great day.

...I just linked Feit to this thread to see if they want to join us.

 

[tcmtech]

Why? Were we not slapping you around enough as is? You need more?

 

[picbits]

So out of curiosity, having posted potentially slanderous accusations about a large companies product safety (across various forums), have you actually had one of these units yourself to examine or are you basing all of your presumption on the insulation etc on the youtube video you linked to ?

Also bear in mind that companies can and do approach forum owners with court orders requesting contact and IP details of a poster so if you are posting these from your company internet you may also implicate the people you are working for.

 

[tcmtech]

Strange and rather self abusive way of learning this one has?

 

[ronv]

I think there are a lot of details around approval for stuff like this. Creepage after the fuse may be different than before and for sure double insulation would apply to the front of the bulb even if the transformer didn't isolate it.

 

[tcmtech]

I am more apt to think that flyback trolls us on these topics in order to pull the correct information out of people who actually understand how these sort of devices are designed and pass certification because he doesn't know how and outrightly can't do it himself in order to fulfil his own job duties.

One of my first bosses had this strategy. He was basically inept at his own job but fairly good at getting others to do his work for him where he could then take credit for work he never did and for ideas that were well out of his own capacity to formulate.

 

[large_ghostman]

hmmmm part of me think's your probably one of those idiot savants just without the savant bit