Extremely dumb Thin Client

[tonyp12]

I could really see a commercial success for a cheap (~$50) thin client.

A really dumb terminal, it does not even have a cpu.

Interface to Ethernet cat6.
DVI out.
4 USB ports.
Maybe analog mic-in and audio-out.


It have 2MB of DDR memory that is connected directly to the DVI.

Only pixels on the screens that have changed are sent over network up to 30/sec.

Some simple form of delta compression will be used.
As the terminal does not have a CPU and only have a DMA
that can only handle "start offset", "bytes per row" and "number of rows"


The 4 usb are for keyboard and mouse and also for a personal scanner/printer etc.

mic and audio could be useful for VOIP

This dumb thing is so small that it connects directly to the LCD monitors DVI port as a small dongle.


I could see an office where the boss have the master computer
running a Intel e6600 with two 250GB HD in raid-1 on his desk.

8 other office people are connected through a gigabit 8port
switch using a $100 17" LCD and $10 mouse/keyboard.

All the programs are run on the main computer, so a software
that creates up to 9 users on 8 artificial video screens need be installed.

Bill Gates probably want license for all 9 users, so maybe Linux?

What are your thoughts?
Should be possible to build?

 

[justDIY]

sounds like a lofty goal with some huge hurdles.

you'll need some form on intelligence in the client to handle all the user interface stuff not to mention the network communications.

it would be far easier to start with something like a simple PDA with (analog) vga capabilities and build up, and strip out features you don't need

 

[tonyp12]

Would do the project in baby steps.

step 1:
Create a DVI memory driver, that displays a static picture from its internal memory.

If you add enough memory for say 16 full uncompressed images
and a simple memory offset counter you get a slide show picture frame.

Could be useful for showing off LCD monitors in retail stores and a HDMI version for showing off 1080p


Step 2:
Create a cat6 interface so the memory can be updated remotely.

Useful for remote display area, such as drive-thru. (mc Donald's)


Step 3:
Install delta compression and USB in/out.
create software plug-in that simulates 8 video screens
so you can run any Windows program of your choice.
Figure out how to do super fast mutli-user switching so
no additional user license are required from Microsoft.


This product idea is © by Tony Philipsson.

 

[Hero999]

so you can run any Windows program of your choice.
Figure out how to do super fast mutli-user switching so
no additional user license are required from Microsoft.

Why are you assuming he wants to use Winwoes?
I guessed he was using UNIX.

This product idea is © by Tony Philipsson.

What a load of bull!
You can't copyright an idea then post it on a forum!

Anyway, who uses dumb terminals these days when real computers are so cheap?

 

[tonyp12]

9 brand new lite computers with 9 license for ms XP and office: $500 each = $4500.

Get 8 dumb terminals plus one $1000 PC for $1400 = $3100 savings.

Only one computer to maintain and upgrade.
Only one computer to supply with power backup to guard against data loss.
All files saved on one raid-1 system to protect against data loss.
Desktop space savings and savings on the electric bill.

Linux can handle 9 users with no problem, and as it's free its
cost does not go up when adding additional users.

Windows on the other hand have a per cpu fee and per user fee.
If that can be avoided by having such a dumb terminal that is does
not count as a cpu and users are switched 30/second.

The majority of office people use Windoze so it would cater to them.

 

[Clarcius]

Stuff like this is always in demand in the Point-of-Sale market; terminals that allow you to put a single touchscreen monitor and maybe a keyboard interface for credit card swipes. With IP receipt printers rather than serial or parallel units, you can end up with a very scaled-down station; since POS software is the usual cost-prohibitive factor for new restaurants, this sort of thing would be a very lucrative product.

 

[justDIY]

What a load of bull!
You can't copyright an idea then post it on a forum!

who says?

copyrights aren't for ideas anyway, he'd need a patent for his huge money making idea

edit: sorry, i was sounding like an armchair attorney for a min there

 

[hjames]

Well lets say you find 17" monitors with DVI (not too likely for that price btw...) and for the sake of anyone with non-failing vision, you end up with 1280x1024 monitors - 1.3MPixels/frame, 60Hz framerate. DVI is typically 8 bits per color, so 1.3M * 60 *3bytes = 234MBytes/second.

Now, unless you happen to have a semi fab/asic design team backing you up, this will require a $20-$30 FPGA attached to a $5-$10 DVI serialization chip. Oh, and that custom gigabit ethernet interface is kinda pricy too - $20 for the PHY chip, and that FPGA is now a $40 one. Throw in another $20 of memory for the frame buffer, and you'll have a reasonable estimate for the expensive parts. The power supply parts, boards, case, misc parts will take that price and quadruple it. Oh, and you'd better pay whoever is designing and building this thing, as well as the FCC/UL/CE testing, marketing, etc.

Now if you look around the web a bit, you'll find someone who had a similar idea, but implemented it in a more pragmatic way - take a half dozen video cards and throw them into a computer. Ditto with a bunch of USB mice and keyboards. Throw in some software which binds them together properly - and presto a software solution to the problem.

https://linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html

A work environment that's a bit *too* personal for my tastes, but hey, some people like it that way...

 

[justDIY]

https://linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html

A work environment that's a bit *too* personal for my tastes, but hey, some people like it that way...

that's pretty awesome, and eliminates the need for a 'client' at all

no reason that idea couldn't be 'extended' using booster hardware to give you 25-50 feet per console (more than enough for a cube farm) of separation.

 

[tonyp12]

This dumb terminal have to be retailed for around $50
It's not really a terminal, more of a remote display with remote
USB access. (up to 295 feet away)

The DVI version will use this chip: **broken link removed**
($2.50 in 10,000 piece quantities)

Or maybe this one, with both DVI and RGB support.
**broken link removed**

Cost of monitors will drop and DVI will be prevalent.
But it's a cost that is part of any desktop system.

You can change the DPI settings in windows if text is to small,
as the display should be run in native mode (1024x768 preferred)

This would be a hugh undertaking and nothing I could do myself
or even use/risk my own money to create as production run
of at leat 10'000 units to get the cost/unit down.


Yes, I have known about **broken link removed**
for years, but do you see the problem when of even trying to run this more than 20 feet away.
RGB boosters and USB repeaters etc. (adds up to the cost and a mess of wires)

If your office already have a cat6 infrastructure you can put a new $50 desktop anywhere.
And maybe a wifi version will be created for mobility.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I would suggest it still needs a CPU, something has to tie the hardware together - and a CPU is a LOT easier than masses of chips or custom built ones. As a concept though it looks like "let's go back to the fifties", with a single computer and lots of dumb terminals connected to it. I would have thought the low price of modern computing equipment would make it pretty pointless?.

 

[tonyp12]

Thin clients (dumb terminals) are making a comeback.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&q=Thin+clients+making+a+comeback

It's much easier for the IT department to maintain just one computer
than bunch of old "real" computers on each and every desktop.


My product takes advantage that cat6 (gigabit) networks start being more common.
As my system use a fair big amount of bandwidth if a lot of pixels on the screen is changing.

And say that the company use a specific program that cost $1000 per user license,
but if fast multi-user switching is used and it turns out that legally you would not have to pay that per "remote desktop"
The savings and ease of use to maintain, I say I have a winner.

There is not really a limit on how many remote desktops is possible with my system.
But up to 64 units seems like a good numbers before everything starts slowing down to a crawl.
I would guess MS Word only use 2% off the cpu even while typing.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

And say that the company use a specific program that cost $1000 per user license,
but if fast multi-user switching is used and it turns out that legally you would not have to pay that per "remote desktop"

You've already answered your own question PER USER, two users using the same program would need to pay twice - or the relative amounts based on a multi-user licence.

 

[tonyp12]

PER USER, two users using the same program would need to pay twice -

Not necessary, take windows XP for instance
have you notice that you can set up different username log-ins.

MS does not charge extra that 4 different people can use
the same Windows and Office at different times.

If you now switch these users 30/second, you are all using
the program one at time but it's seamless for the users.

 

[justDIY]

as an it person, if you're trying to avoid paying licensing costs, look at open office

and for cutting down on expense per machine, look at purchasing 'recycling' computers ... all you need is a working cpu with network card and a basic monitor, the speed of the cpu is not important, since it will behave as a fat client off a server

you should be able to buy recycling computers for less than $1/lb ... of course you'll want to hand pick the ones that look good rather than just taking a bulk delivery

 

[tonyp12]

A lot of programs are not available as a Linux version,
so you can not expect the corporate America to switch from Windoze.

And you can not expect them to use old junk that creates more labor cost from the IT department in the setup alone.

My dumb terminal is the size of a deck of cards that plugs directly
in the DVI port without a DVI cable (e.g dongle) and uses about 5watt of electricity.

 

[hjames]

The estimates I posted are essentially costs for engineering prototypes - if you seriously want to persue this line, you'll need something to demo to investors. The numbers obviously change if you want to try scaling up the quantity into the 10K's, but again, that needs some serious money - i.e. real investors and real money backing you up. Alternatively you can try to sell the idea off to someone, but no one will buy an "idea". If you've done the legwork and gotten a demonstrable piece of hardware (and more importantly the software), you'll be able to get something for your troubles.

As another point of reference, the USB->VGA dongles that are floating around are probably quite a bit less complex than what you want to build, and retail for ~$100 or so. Do you think you can build something more complex for cheaper?

Oh, and another thing - Windows emulation is definitely a viable option - Codeweaver/Wine, or just plain VMWare are nice stopgaps when you really need access to Windows programs.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

My dumb terminal is the size of a deck of cards that plugs directly
in the DVI port without a DVI cable (e.g dongle) and uses about 5watt of electricity.

You mean your 'imaginary' dumb terminal is?, from what's you've said you've only imagined a concept - with no real idea of what it might cost or involve?.

 

[justDIY]

You mean your 'imaginary' dumb terminal is?, from what's you've said you've only imagined a concept - with no real idea of what it might cost or involve?.

dont forget, it only costs $50 (presumably us dollars?)

my biggest question, since I need a break from work now and again, how well does it run Doom III ?

 

[tonyp12]

my biggest question, since I need a break from work now and again, how well does it run Doom III ?

Not to good, around 10 frames /sec. and that is if there are no other heave usage of the network at the same time.
But if you go with 640x480 at 16bit you get up to 25 frames/sec, and that is very playable.

Do I already have a working prototype?, how do I know all this stuff?
hmmm.........