# Converting a yacht to electric propulsion - maximise hydro generation

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
Actually, to prove something works it does have to be quantitatively defined.

Your imagined reality is not fact unless you can define it with solid laws of physics.
I think you are a bit confused. My imagined reality? How about I attempt to clear this up.

The OP wants to use electricity to move his boat. Then with that motion, generate electricity to power that same motor that makes the motion to harvest the energy to make the motion etc.
That system will come to an end. I assume you know this to be true without me giving you numbers. Or is that what you call my imagined reality? You don't really think he power his boat forever with his set up do you?

So he transfers power to the water and makes motion. Then there is a turbine up front creating drag which his motor needs to work harder to overcome to maintain motion. That turbine captures motion energy with a LOSS. Then that turbine transfers to a generator which has another LOSS.

Hook the generator right up to the motor and you don't have the TURBINE LOSS. Just the generator loss. Either way that boat is going to stop sooner or later.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
I think you are a bit confused. My imagined reality? How about I attempt to clear this up.

The OP wants to use electricity to move his boat. Then with that motion, generate electricity to power that same motor that makes the motion to harvest the energy to make the motion etc.
That system will come to an end. I assume you know this to be true without me giving you numbers. Or is that what you call my imagined reality? You don't really think he power his boat forever with his set up do you?

So he transfers power to the water and makes motion. Then there is a turbine up front creating drag which his motor needs to work harder to overcome to maintain motion. That turbine captures motion energy with a LOSS. Then that turbine transfers to a generator which has another LOSS.

Hook the generator right up to the motor and you don't have the TURBINE LOSS. Just the generator loss. Either way that boat is going to stop sooner or later.
Show us your numbers and dispel the idea of who has the confusion.

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
Show us your numbers and dispel the idea of who has the confusion.

#### large_ghostman

##### Well-Known Member
For crying out loud, just use a fidget spinner

#### tcmtech

##### Banned

The last time I checked this level of physics could easily be modeled with basic math.

Do you not know how to do basic math or do you know the math will disprove your claim?

It's your idea so own up to it and prove me wrong.

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
The last time I checked this level of physics could easily be modeled with basic math.

Do you not know how to do basic math or do you know the math will disprove your claim?

It's your idea so own up to it and prove me wrong.
750 W into the prop from the motor. hydro turbine extracts 50 W at a cost of 100 W. Hydro turbine turns generator to produce about 43 W after 15% generator loss.
43 W at a cost of 57 W.

Now attach a generator to the 750 W prop shaft and make 43 W after a 15% loss.
43 W at a cost of 7 W.

Do I need to prove to you that 7 is less than 57? Or can I assume that is implied. I have been wrong before.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
So your wasting 7 watts doing absolutely nothing rather than 50? Its still a pointless loss that comes out of the battery. That's what I am getting at. It serves no gainful function in extending the run time and distances in a system that has a limited usable energy capacity.

Do you think putting a alternator on a EV to charge the battery it gets its power from while it drives would help it too?

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
So your wasting 7 watts doing absolutely nothing rather than 50? Its still a pointless loss that comes out of the battery. That's what I am getting at. It serves no gainful function in extending the run time and distances in a system that has a limited usable energy capacity.

Do you think putting a alternator on a EV to charge the battery it gets its power from while it drives would help it too?
I disclosed that in each and everyone of my posts; in one way or another.
OP himself did state at the beginning that it was a fools endeavor, an 'over-unity' set up. So I was helping the endeavor work out less foolishly because it appeared as though there wouldn't be any talking him out of extraction. So why not show him a better way to extract.

Using a turbine to harvest energy while using your motor to push through water? Do this instead:

Power your alternator directly from your motor. you'll have less loss than sending the power to the water for motion then extracting it again. Just extract at the shaft.
[...]
Hook the generator right up to the motor and you don't have the TURBINE LOSS. Just the generator loss. Either way that boat is going to stop sooner or later.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
So why not show him a better way to extract.
It was already discussed and broken down by the numbers in fairly reasonable real world anticipatable conditions and time frames by me and others, did you not read the whole thread before making your case that - not functional - comes into two ranges, - more efficiently not functional - and - less efficiently not functional -?

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
It was already discussed and broken down by the numbers in fairly reasonable real world anticipatable conditions and time frames by me and others, did you not read the whole thread before making your case that - not functional - comes into two ranges, - more efficiently not functional - and - less efficiently not functional -?
I see you gave numbers on how big a sail would need to be to generate power. I posted about something different. I don't see where anyone suggested what I did.

Once you found out it was over-unity, you stopped with numbers and shortly started in on grammar.

You think you're king *$@# and like to hear yourself talk. #### large_ghostman ##### Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member I see you gave numbers on how big a sail would need to be to generate power. I posted about something different. I don't see where anyone suggested what I did. Once you found out it was over-unity, you stopped with numbers and shortly started in on grammar. You think you're king *$@# and like to hear yourself talk.
Dont get personal please, no need for it. This is a community who on the whole have known each other a long time, toys should be kept in the pram or go play with the little kids. Rational debate is one thing, manhood measuring just lessens your message, and frankly taking power from on point of the electric motor t charge the motor is fruitless.

It may seem less insane to you but its still insane. Whichever way you work the numbers, taking power from the motor at any point, to try and charge the battery a little, is still going to cost you more energy than simply leaving the alternator off. There is a net loss the moment you attempt to recover energy from the motor with a alternator like that.

Most here try and keep in mind that the information given, is read and seen by many more people than every join. It matters that correct information and advice is given, many of the people who will see this, will never join and ask about it. So see it as responsibility to act accordingly.

the only real options, while not great, are chemical or adding in and tapping off another source such as wind.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
I see you gave numbers on how big a sail would need to be to generate power. I posted about something different. I don't see where anyone suggested what I did.

Once you found out it was over-unity, you stopped with numbers and shortly started in on grammar.

You think you're king *$@# and like to hear yourself talk. Go read the thread in its entirety and come back and say that. Your laziness and or illiteracy is not my problem or an excuse for you to get upset at me. And yes, I am the king of *$@# and I do like to hear myself talk. Someone's gotta be the voice of basic sense and reasoning but until they show up I am stuck with the job.

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#### Frozenguy

##### Member
Dont get personal please, no need for it. This is a community who on the whole have known each other a long time, toys should be kept in the pram or go play with the little kids. Rational debate is one thing, manhood measuring just lessens your message, and frankly taking power from on point of the electric motor t charge the motor is fruitless.

It may seem less insane to you but its still insane. Whichever way you work the numbers, taking power from the motor at any point, to try and charge the battery a little, is still going to cost you more energy than simply leaving the alternator off. There is a net loss the moment you attempt to recover energy from the motor with a alternator like that.

Most here try and keep in mind that the information given, is read and seen by many more people than every join. It matters that correct information and advice is given, many of the people who will see this, will never join and ask about it. So see it as responsibility to act accordingly.

the only real options, while not great, are chemical or adding in and tapping off another source such as wind.

The only cause of displeasure I have ever encountered on this site, before I joined and after, were the condescending posts of tcmtech to other people.
The guy is so rude and condescending and he loves it. That is not community. He is here for his ego.
I'm sorry it got awkward in here. It's done and past.

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
The only cause of displeasure I have ever encountered on this site, before I joined and after, were the condescending posts of tcmtech.
The guy is so rude and condescending and he loves it. That is not community. He is here for his ego.
So asking you to clarify and or prove your claims is condescending? I am getting the impression you're reading way more of yourself into my posts than what I have ever put there.

As for ego, I think you are confusing technical formality and experience for whatever you are misreading reading into what I post. Believe me, if I wanted to be condescending or just troll you, everyone would know it.

But on the upside, shortbus obviously loves you, so that's something you have that I don't!

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
Go read the thread in its entirety and come back and say that. Your laziness and or illiteracy is not my problem or an excuse for you to get upset at me.

And yes, I am the king of *\$@# and I do like to hear myself talk. Someone's gotta be the voice of basic sense and reasoning but until they show up I am stuck with the job.
I did. I don't have numbers to show you for that though.

Laziness? Illiteracy? You're no sense of reason. No matter how many colorful smileys you use. How about you get a sense of community rather than yourself. You have managed to provide a handful of helpful answers among your 7k+ posts. Get over yourself.

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
So asking you to clarify and or prove your claims is condescending? I am getting the impression you're reading way more of yourself into my posts than what I have ever put there.

As for ego, I think you are confusing technical formality and experience for whatever you are misreading reading into what I post. Believe me, if I wanted to be condescending or just troll you, everyone would know it.

But on the upside, shortbus obviously loves you, so that's something you have that I don't!
I edited my post before you posted. It read as if I felt you were condescending to me. That was not my intention. My edited post should clear that up. I'm talking about how you act towards the community.

Technical experience? Get over yourself. Doesn't give anyone any logical reason to be rude and condescending to others.

And if I were to claim you were condescending to me, it would be with the smilies. Not asking me to provide numbers.

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
Using a turbine to harvest energy while using your motor to push through water? Do this instead:

Power your alternator directly from your motor. you'll have less loss than sending the power to the water for motion then extracting it again. Just extract at the shaft.
Show us the numbers behind that setup including efficiency losses relating to both the motor, 20KW, and the alternator, 2 KW, assuming a 95% efficiency for both.

Look at you jump on me like a shark. You figure I had something physically impossible going on or misunderstood what I was talking about. Demanding me to get numbers. So I qualitatively describe to you how both systems have the same component losses, however one has additional component loss (turbine). So one has more loss.

And you claimed you required quantitative explanation. Yet it can, and was, explained for you qualitatively.

You were completely wrong, aggressive, and rude. Calling me illiterate when you can't even read what you're responding to. Referring to my 'imaginary physics'.

During my time reading here at ETO, and recently posting, I have seen countless helpful posts from regulars and newbies. Only you stood out. You for your aggression and negativity.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
Technical experience? Get over yourself. Doesn't give anyone any logical reason to be rude and condescending to others.

Again, How you chose to read your own narratives into my or anyone else's posts is not my problem. It's obvious you're seeing something that's not there. Not my fault for that. I don't own your ability to read or emotionally regulate while reading.

As for technical ability I don't hand people everything I have to offer. I point in a direction and expect them to walk it as far as they can themselves because that's how they will actually learn it.

Same with the numbers, you made a statement then didn't clarify it in any way that made rational technical sense when asked to. What was I supposed to do? Prove your concept for you?

Look at you jump on me like a shark. You figure I had something physically impossible or misunderstood going on. Forcing me to get numbers. So I qualitatively describe to you how both systems have the same component losses, however one has additional component loss (turbine). So one has more loss.
Okay? I gave you a set of simple numbers for you to work from to make your point and that's going after you like a shark?

How many chapters are in this imaginary book of nefarious intentions I have for you that you read from between each line I post? I'm getting the impression it's near War and Peace in size.

You were completely wrong, aggressive, and rude. Calling me illiterate when you can't even read what you're responding to. Referring to my 'imaginary physics'.
Well, when you don't prove your claims and it appears you're reading things into stuff that is not there what am I supposed to think? In my books it either poor reading skills or delusional (cognitive dissonance) thoughts. I chose the nicer assumption but now I'm starting to think the latter is a more fitting plausibility.

During my time reading here at ETO, and recently posting, I have seen countless helpful posts from regulars and newbies. Only you stood out. You for your aggression and negativity.
I see, You don't care for being held to a standard that's a bit higher than you are at ,so that you might learn and grow to be something better than you are. I will make note of it and from now on and talk down to you while expecting nothing of value from you for it. (What cloth would you like for the pillows and blankets in your safe space and do you want Puppy or a Kitty videos to play in a loop?)

#### large_ghostman

##### Well-Known Member
The only cause of displeasure I have ever encountered on this site, before I joined and after, were the condescending posts of tcmtech to other people.
The guy is so rude and condescending and he loves it. That is not community. He is here for his ego.
I'm sorry it got awkward in here. It's done and past.
The point for each of us is how we conduct ourselves and not how the other person erks us. Up to the point you were rude it was simply a exchange of differing views, On the whole the mods here are tolerant but personal attacks such as you gave, are not well tolerated by anyone.

Nothing you think of TCM has anything to do with the subject matter, and as stated it is commonly excepted that what you suggest is not any kind of reasonable solution. I dont actually think the OP has a reasonable answer in this case, it certainly wont help others looking for knowledge, to be lead down paths of false hope. Power out = power in plus interest.

We cant change those facts, although i for one would have been interested in seeing a reasoned debate on why it would be worth a shot. But i think its just time to let it go, what your likely unaware of but trust me is clearly obvious, you have told TCM exactly where you keep your buttons. No point trying to snipe from blown cover .

#### Frozenguy

##### Member
The point for each of us is how we conduct ourselves and not how the other person erks us. Up to the point you were rude it was simply a exchange of differing views, On the whole the mods here are tolerant but personal attacks such as you gave, are not well tolerated by anyone.

Nothing you think of TCM has anything to do with the subject matter, and as stated it is commonly excepted that what you suggest is not any kind of reasonable solution. I dont actually think the OP has a reasonable answer in this case, it certainly wont help others looking for knowledge, to be lead down paths of false hope. Power out = power in plus interest.

We cant change those facts, although i for one would have been interested in seeing a reasoned debate on why it would be worth a shot. But i think its just time to let it go, what your likely unaware of but trust me is clearly obvious, you have told TCM exactly where you keep your buttons. No point trying to snipe from blown cover .
My buttons? I'm full disclosure. It irks me when people are righteous, rude, and condescending. So I call him out on it. Why do you think tcm has a problem with so many in this community? Look at his sig line. He loves toying with people. I call out junk behavior and personalities like that.

And to clear something up with you, I never suggested or even implied one could transfer energy without a loss. Every one of my posts disclosed that.

The guy (tcm) deserves to be called out on his behavior. It's a private forum so if the mods like his behavior and want to delete my posts, that's their deal. It drives users away. Not sure why they would want that. He was so quick and eager to prove someone wrong he didn't even understand what he was reading. After our exchange and realizing I never at all suggested over-unity works he gets on my case about why I even posted in the first place. The guy is rude and just out to serve his own ego.