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Brunswick Bio Flo controller

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #21
looks like a standard IEC mains socket.

Nah. With your obvious abilities I'm sure you could modify the mounting of an alternative motor, if necessary. Is a stirrer that critical, as long as it stirs at a controllable rate?
To a degree the bottom one in the outer jacket i can put up with on fully or off, i dont need speed control, yes it would be nice but isnt major.

The black stir mechanism that stirs the inner jacket is vital, so is the speed control and unfortunately it isnt a set speed, it isnt on all the time. You monitor the organism and the phase its in, depending on the situation the stiring being on or off and the speed control is dictated by the sensors information of what the reactor is doing. This is i suppose one reason they charge £12,000 secondhand for the control unit :D. First dry runs are with yeast, after that i need to do it for real.

8 pins....
is it likely 6 for the stepper and 2 are control pins? all pins are highly likely to actually do something. I havnt come across any of these plug types with multi pins where all the pins are not used, not in bioreactors anyway. they tend to just pin up the connections they need
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #22
The toast comment is because i am up against the clock, miss the next sales cycle and it all ends in tears. I am behind time wise as it is, i have to test the complete system with yeast first. Its a basic test in many ways but as long as i can fully utilize the sugar keep the immobilized yeast happy and keep the production constant, then it should work for what i want.

Ok lets go take the top off the motor unit, i am happy with most the rest. Those pumps are a separate problem, but it isnt difficult. Run them full speed and see what they output, then that gives me an idea what speed i need to get them down to, two will add nutrients or other compounds as needed. so its a case of finding the speed that gives a small amount of solution and then a dead band time for the reactions to complete, take the measurements from the probes (all automatic), if more is needed the pump runs again.

So from that view its a trial and error to see what they push out at full power, then simply adjust the speed to deliver say 0.2ml each cycle. I dont know but my assumption is those kinds of pumps are stepper motor types anyway? I think the drivers however just get the pump to go full speed if you just connect them to the 240V.

So i will use zero cross detect triac, on for ~5 cycles or whatever then off for X, on then off and wait, read and repeat if needed. Not major problem......
The PH controller that comes with the reactor is a problem, it also has the DO probe connection and the PH probe earth connection, no temp compensation and no ref probe, so that leaves a choice of exactly one type of probe :D. But in reality I can dump the unit, use something like my Jenway station and take the reading from the serial port.

Dissolved Oxygen, i dont have another probe, i dont think i actually need DO measurement anyway, PH and temperature along with REDOX and TDS readings will be enough to work out DO and some other things anyway.

Sorry this planning bit is boring! I promise the build will be of interest. but I need to get this all straight in my head first.

Variac for 110V for the heat plate, the bottom outer jacket stir mechanism i can deal with, maybe butcher the control for that or even replace the magnet unit and motor with a dedicated magnetic stirrer i have that dosnt heat, I can take the inners out, it takes 240V but drops that to 12V DC.

Micro or several for the different parts, Fram for storing the readings and maybe a pi 3 as the control interface. I dont trust the r pi's, so the micros will be able to do there thing regardless of the pi being on or not. The pi is more a nice easy interface to sort settings and grab the data when i need it.

There is a RTD port, i am leaning towards a RTD for this and not something like a DS sensor. Still open to ideas however.

Small 12V pumps for fluid transfer like the product and empty/fill jobs. plus moving the products etc between the reactors. Simples that one, pwn on brushed DC motors on the pumps.

Level and froth sensors are fairly basic on these, so again not something to think about at the moment. Two of the reactors are all glass no metal at all in them, the other 2/3 are similar reactors to the one i posted a pic of, the others are single unit no outer jackets on, but they have top stiring that is nice and simple 220V, I have the motors and controller for those.

Mai fluid we are dealing with for the cells is Bovine Fetal Serum, standard Biotech stuff, to that is added a mix of nutrient and normally saline! But because the reactors are stainless steel in part, i am not adding saline, instead the saline will be inside the alginate bead itself, so will the organism. Outer bead shell is hardened with chloride, in this case 36% HCl to kill off any stray cells and to give a fairly hard dense outer. then a quick Conc sulphuric acid dip, carbonize any cells the HCl missed, into bicarb to neutralize the Sulphuric. I am hoping for 6 weeks life span from each set of beads.

Worse scenario is cells getting into out and into the nutrient solution, cleaning the product up is hard enough, dealing with cells and cell products on mass is something i want to avoid. No protocols apply directly, but several standard ones are close enough to adapt.

So next post i hope to have pics of this stepper.
 

alec_t

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#23
You certainly know how to keep busy :). Good luck with the project.
 

cowboybob

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#24
Does the stirring process require variable speeds during the process(es), or would a single speed be adequate.

Anyway, I'm thinking a motor swap (with any necessary shaft connection mods), such as these examples. Then could use a stepper drive motor controller and a Uno (or whatever).
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #25
Has to be variable speed, the reason isnt singular, but one reason as an example is CO2. If you stir too fast then you can start to alter the gas concentration in the liquid, you can for example gas off some CO2, this alters the PH.

Its a really fine balance and like i said is probably one reason the real controllers are $12,000 second hand. The stir bar itself is pretty stiff as they are air tight, so the stepper is similar to cnc ones, I have the shaft and motor, i am sure we can get that going, if not then maybe i will have to modify it to take another motor, but they need alot of torque. RPM wise the internal jacket stir mechanism runs for our use from 3 rpm upto 250 RPM, 250RPM is rare, the stiring is used alot to alter the PH without adding any chemicals, it ups the RPM as first line PH raising, if that dosnt raise the PH then the pumps add a small amount of buffer.

The buffer used is slightly toxic to the organism, I would like a different serum, Bovine Fetal serum is bog standard bio chem goto serum for cells, but it isnt perfect for this organism, its the closet i found so far.
Maybe i will try new brunswick again and try and get a service guy on the phone. Its hard because the number i had was in America, so getting someone on at a decent time wasnt easy.

Other companies use the same motor. All i really need is the voltage, i am simply worried of burning it out. Time is ticking but i cant rush the planning, i have single batch runs going, but at some point i need to upgrade to continuous process, i cant find anything even using sci finder database, on this organism except its ID. No one seems to have written anything at all on it!!

It got found and named and that seems to be about it, Its take a really long time to work out how to grow it and use it, but doing it in batches in proper reactors hasnt been too hard. This upgrade to continuous system is alot tougher as i have zero information. But that is kind of the point anyway, if others new what its by products did then large companies would be using it and it would be done on an industrial scale.]

I got lucky and spotted something one day in the lab, it wasnt as if i researched it and planned the outcome, absolute pure luck i discovered its properties.
 

large_ghostman

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Yeah this isnt keeping busy, this is work. I got little option but to make this work, i doubt i would do it for fun, well ok i might :D. but this time its all work related because its critical to my most profitable product thats becoming extremely popular. I cant meet demand for it, not by a long way. But i dont really want too, it keeps the price high
 

KeepItSimpleStupid

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#27
Your plugs in post #14 is a standard AMP CPC-1 series connector. See: http://www.newark.com/amp-from-te-connectivity/206044-1/circular-connector-plug-size-17/dp/46F320?st=14 pin amp cpc

The series should have same sex shells and reverse sex shells. Totally different. The pins pop out REALLY EASY with the correct tool. I used the CPC-2 series for stuff I built for work. All parts are separate. Shell, strain relief (multiple sizes), pins (various wire size and platings). I always used selective gold.

==

What I have seen done with stirrers is that the motor would be three phase, but the input would be single phase. They used a VFD.

The ranges of input voltages SUGGEST that the power supply had dual voltage switching or a line voltage switch. Who knows how they kept the system happy. A line voltage selector switch or auto switching.

Usually the mate for the connector in post #15 is the C13 snap in. A standard IEC power cord will fit the connector, but it could be any standard mains voltage. At www.alliedelec.com search for IN-VAC13KI-001 You can even get power strips in that nonsense. http://www.internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=60460

Aside: http://www.medorex.com/assets/mime/40b01aecbd42b2659d9ab65497656aec/FCU05-KG-system.pdf Possible future use for you.
 
Last edited:

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #28
thanks for the info, currently i am trying to plan out the sequence of what i need. I think i can do it with 3 reactors, but a quick mock up with yeast and a week run will tell me if thats a go. Once I know that i can work out how many sensors and what kind, i can at least make some progress while i figure out the hard bits. Bovine serum is not an option for continuous runs, I have had some in the incubator with a similar cell line, it breaks down too quick for what i need.

Thats something i didnt see coming, so i need to think about other media and protocols. Not the end of the world but BFS is the norm and its what i am used to, messing with recipes at this stage isnt something i need. If anyone wants a full look at whats going on shout me, apart from the organism name etc all the docs will be on a private site, your welcome to access if you got an interest. But i wont be putting everything out publicly, the electronic side i will and probably the protocols and recipes, they might help others at some point.
 

large_ghostman

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I will give that a good read. Running low of Nitrogen and cant get any delivered, need it for the cell incubators, not just this strain but my methogens as well. The incubators seem to have got through this bottle a bit quick. This is where a ultra cold freezer would be good, might have to go back to that at some point.

Getting a pain keeping so many cultures in culture incubators. The cold dry air dosnt see to help for some odd reason.
 

alec_t

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#31
Off-topic.
I see your avatar has a twin over at AAC.
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #32
its not me as far as i know, i havnt been there in several years
 

KeepItSimpleStupid

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#33
Not, him. The one over at AAC has a 10 YO kid. I thought of the possibility for a while. I may shoot you a PM for access to the biological stuff just to expand my horizons. My horizons are pretty vast anyway and I did do a science fair project in high school in biology and won a decent prize anyway.
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #34
Its pretty interesting if you like science, obviously alot of electronics on this particular one. Only reason its not open is to keep idiots out and some the stuff in commercial.
 

large_ghostman

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Alec... I cant get the top off! two screws and i cant one undone lmao. Worse case scenario can i send you the stir unit to look at? someone told me today it might be 24V DC stepper in it..... I dont mind you breaking it but i couldnt face breaking it myself.

Also why 8 wires? are we assuming 6 wires for the coils etc, one wire maybe a tacho? one wire maybe speed control? Or perhaps some kind of feedback like current or whatever? Small steppers i am ok on this thing is like a high power mini size cnc stepper so i am told, not sure how reliable the info is though.

The PH controller is RS485! So it does look like the power for it is via the D type socket.

Going with the R PI 2 until I can afford the R PI 3. its use is more easy interface than anything, and data storage etc, the actual control system will be able to be set and run without the PI connected if needed.

I am 2 days behind but expected that, i can catch up some time once i get in the stride. I will run the peristaltic pumps later and get a handle on output and speed without any control applied.
 

KeepItSimpleStupid

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#36
Alec... I cant get the top off! two screws and i cant one undone lmao. Worse case scenario can i send you the stir unit to look at? someone told me today it might be 24V DC stepper in it..... I dont mind you breaking it but i couldnt face breaking it myself.

Also why 8 wires? are we assuming 6 wires for the coils etc, one wire maybe a tacho? one wire maybe speed control? Or perhaps some kind of feedback like current or whatever? Small steppers i am ok on this thing is like a high power mini size cnc stepper so i am told, not sure how reliable the info is though.
24 VDC stepper. My guess.

Steppers are wierd. Minimum is 4 wires. Sometimes 6 (e.g. center-tapped) or even 8 for 4 coils. So, there.

They may not do actual RPM feedback because RPM is directly related to step rate, Even 4 wires for stepper and 4 for say an optocoupler is a possibility. My bet is an 8 wire (4 coils) stepper and no feedback.

The six wire stepper can actually work as a 4 wire stepper with 2x the "rated" voltage or a 6-wire stepper at the rated voltage.

Think of a center-tapped winding. With a +V at the center tap, you can ground either end at the rated voltage. With the center tap unused, the voltage needed is 2x the rated one. An H-bridge is required. the H-bridge is required for the 4-wire stepper.

Screws. Cut a slot with a Dremel/Proxon motor tool and use a flat blade screwdriver.
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #37
These are slotted screws, i am going to grind the heads off with a dremel. Time to stop playing nicely. 4 coils 8 wires...... Makes sense, these motors are not a special part, apparently they are used in alot of other things. No idea what or i would have the datasheet :D, but i do know how super critical stiring can be on these reactors, you need to be able to turn them smoothly from virtually zero all the way up to spin speed on a washer! (ok not that fast). Also some reverse, i dont know if reverse was on the controller for this one.

Which does raise the question would i need reverse? Probably, i will take more pics later of the actual reactor. Tomorrow i am going to start to rig up a system to test the various bits, on my other reactors that are similar, the baffles are built into the head plate, on this model the baffle slips inside the inner reactor. The way it sits i can see sludge (technical biotech term) building up in places on the baffle plates, dead spots like this are not good.

So gentle reversing now and then would be good, I am going to use a special yeast strain that makes acetone, Butonol and ethanol. The reason being its a bit more sensitive than normal yeast especially if you encapsulate it in alginate. But if (when) it goes wrong then it isnt a big loss, i keep slants of the strain in the incubator anyway. But it should show up any issues i might run into. There is an airpump called a Hiflo that was made for aquariums and runs with two pistons that produce the air on 4 outputs.

the company stopped trading a very long time ago, until recently you could get these marvels of engineering cheap on ebay, NOT ANYMORE! Looks like they cost more now and when first made!! Shame as they would have been ideal, i need a fair bit of pressure as the air goes through a syringe filter, felt, 10 micron, 5 micron then finally 1 micron, the air then goes into a wash bottle of high oxidant then a neutralizer wash bottle then a final water wash before being let into the reactor.

Unis use air cylinders of medical quality but the cost is a no go, besides i like the air pump way as you dont suddenly run out.

Fingers crossed i find 4 coils, i will try 12V first and see what happens.
 

alec_t

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#38
Alec... I cant get the top off! two screws and i cant one undone lmao. Worse case scenario can i send you the stir unit to look at?
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not the guy to advise on steppers. I have a couple of old 4-wire ones in my junk box but I've never played with them.
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #39
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not the guy to advise on steppers. I have a couple of old 4-wire ones in my junk box but I've never played with them.
Ok I will delete that comment from my mind and pretend you didnt just say that ok :D.
 

large_ghostman

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Thread starter #40
Right time to start laying the kit out and working out exactly what we got to control, i still see only two main issues. One the hotplate control at 110V and that includes the stupid mag stir on the hotplate, and this top stir mechanism. The pumps etc shouldnt be too bad, if i use one way valves rather than solenoid valves i can cut out alot of complexity.

One thing i dont know yet, the main reactor has two level indicators, well it has the rods and plugs for two, but i dont know if i have the space or connections on the top plate to take two. So we will find that out later, once everyone in bed i will lay some the reactors out and mock it up. I have tried doing it in my head but its too much to keep track of, i thought a single condenser take off would be enough, i might have to use 3, the only real problem with this is making sure the normal pumps run roughly at the same output.

One the all glass reactors has had the top bit painted black!!! I got some toluene and DCM to take that off. The other all glass one needs a repair, but these wont have live organisms in so i am not too worried.
I am ditching Nitrogen as a flush and going the Hydrogen route, for the amount needed i dont see much of a safety concern. Its quick and easy to make pure n dry, dosnt cost much and is one less cylinder to hire!

A couple of my CO2 incubators (they are actually multi gas but call CO2!) need 10psi to work properly, but this reactor dosnt need pressure just a flush with a non Oxygen gas to start it up, you then add Oxygen later but away from the Hydrogen part!
 

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