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A hard to resist problem

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Justin Verrall, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Back in the day that supply was made, symmetrical power supplies were common. e.g. +-12 and +-15 for Op amp circuits and 5V was a common logic supply.

    Today you still see 5V, but you also see .8, 1.8, 3.3. and 5V

    We also see a fair amount of OP amps that operate on 5V.

    Supplies like the Tek have a "tracking mode" where one knob adjusts th epositive and negative voltages. "tracking" means more than that. but for now, that's what it means. The Tek is three power supplies, not one.

    So, the question is: What do you intend to use the supply for?
     
  2. Justin Verrall

    Justin Verrall Member

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    Spec is helping me learn more about electronics and has been helping me to put together a decent electronics work space.
     
  3. Justin Verrall

    Justin Verrall Member

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    Oh by the way I have made the decision to get go down the path of an electronic engineer as my miss is studying programming so we would complement each other very well :)
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Here's the "modern" version of the used TEK supply. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/spd3303d.html Now I did see it as the same price as the used TEK> Sigilent is EU.
    They specifically added 2.5/3.3 and 5V as a switchable option.

    Anyway, I should talk
    I have a Fixed voltage (CV) power supply that is selectable 0-32 V, 10 A supply that's set for 12V. Total cost was like $15.00 USD in the 80's. Huge. I used it to fix car radios.
    Got it broken. 3 inexpensive transistors to fix. Manual I just got recently for like $30.

    Then I got a +12, -12, +5. (CV) Actually a fixed voltage supply with trimmers for about $15.00 - same time period. broke 2x 723 regulator IC

    Then a 0-40, 0-3A CC/CV supply showed up free. Analog Meter switchable voltage/current Manual was $30.
    Currently broken.

    Then a 0-30 V 0-3A CC/CV with digital meters. No manual. Probably $50 ebay.

    Commercial lead Acid 12 V charger tester. Free. Replaced a diode.

    My father's "battery eliminator". It's basically a Variac and selenium rectifier. 0-6, 0-12V.

    I have at least one of these http://www.amazon.com/VvW-Converter-4-5-24V-Rrgulator-Constant/dp/B00IOMSUNU mounted in a box. With 5.5/2.1 and 3.5/2.5 coax in/outs and an Adapt-a-plug output. It makes it easy to replace a wall-wart in a pinch.

    The triple supply and an electronic load would actually be choices if I could "pick" them. Electronic loads are not cheap. e.g. http://www.bkprecision.com/products/dc-electronic-loads/8540-150-w-dc-electronic-load.html
     
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  6. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    If you and your wife take those career decisions you would be wise to find a bank that has a big enough vault to handle your combined salaries. :joyful:
     
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  7. Justin Verrall

    Justin Verrall Member

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    Unfortunately a lot of what you said just went strait over my head sorry I'm still painfully new to this, So do you think it would be better for me to get something other then the one that was suggested to me? I don't have much money so the less money have to spend the better but I will spend it if I have to
     
  8. Musicmanager

    Musicmanager Active Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  9. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Would admin please delete
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  10. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I am trying to discourage the 10A single supply unless you have a use for it or there is some other reason (price/performance)
    Two uses I can think of:
    Charging a lead acid battery (with locking diode)
    Fixing or powering a car stereo
    (chime in guys)

    For any experiments with logic, something like
    https://www.sparkfun.com/products/114 or
    https://www.sparkfun.com/products/13032

    I think would be appropriate. They do require a wall-wart.

    3.3 and 5V logic is common now. Some 0.8 and 1.8V and even 2.5 V exists.
    A lot of times you can get some supplies in a breadboard.

    Now the "harder part":

    Linear circuits are a lot easier to design with dual symmetric power supplies even as low as +-2.5V.
    The voltage is getting lower to reduce the power consumption.
    Single supply designs are used to reduce costs.

    Honestly, I think you would e better putting your dollars at the the P-4060BU here: http://www.jameco.com/1/3/powered-breadboard breadboard.

    You get two 0-15 supplies and a 5V supply at low currents. You don;t need a welder. i.e. 10 A power supply.

    ==

    Not to jump the gun, but a soldering/soldering station probably needs to e looked into.
     
  11. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Is that on religious or perhaps environmental grounds?


    You have answered your own question. There are many other applications that require higher voltage or current. besides which, you are talking as though all you would be connecting to the bench PSU would be resistors. In the real world the situation is much more complex than that and many loads are highly breactive, especially capacitive and you often need good current capability just to start them. I do not even think that 10A is suffient and would be much happier with 20A. A good solid, easy to use PSU is essengtial to electronic work, especially those just starting out so that they are not confused by PSU line problems.

    What I am proposing is a unified modular expansible system. If you want +- lines you just buy another PSU, at the price this is perfectly feasible. If you want +- and a logic lines all at the same time you buy yet another PSU when necessary. That way you have three PSUs all the same which is rational expandable modular and reduces type variety- all fundamental tenants of good design. And the cost long term: £120 UK for life. I can think of no better investment.

    It occurred to me that you might not realise that having a high current capability PSU had no penalties- they can supply very small currents too. At work I had three 0V to 45V PSUS at 20A PSUs and I was damn glad I did. It meant that when a job needed doing i was not scratching around for suitable PSUs like many people. But even 20A was not enough for some applications especially large TTL systems where 5v at 30A would not be uncommon. The PSUs I specified could be parralled to solve that problem. A PC has that sort of consumption all be it now derived from 12V. Any serious audio amp would require +- 50V so even the voltage from the suggested 30V PSU would not be enough. And yet you are recommending something less- it does not make sense from any direction.

    As for the rest of your post you are suggesting a mish-mash of hobby style products that would be badly limiting, difficult to use and a waste of money long term.

    It is a trivial matter to add auxiliary supply lines to a proper PSU, especially one with sufficient current to do the job. With minimum cost you could add a -15V line and a logic level line (5V, 3V3, 2V2, 1V8) to a single to 30V 10A PSU to save money. That arrangement would pee all over the girls system you are proposing.

    You have rambled off on to breadboards too

    FINALLY WILL YOU STOP FOLLOWING ME AROUND ETO LIKE A SHADOW AND CONTRADICTING EVERYTHING I SAY WITHOUT GOOD REASON. I HAD TO LEAVE THE TRANSISTOR EQUIVALENT THREAD BECAUSE OF CONSTANT HASSLE FROM BOTH YOU AND AUDIOGURU - THAT THREAD HAS NOW DIED. I HOPE THE SAME THING DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THIS THREAD- DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE?

    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/transistor-equivalent.146091/page-36#post-1246086
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  12. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    You have to realize how I operate. I've been told that I have some characteristics of Asberger's syndrome, but I don't have it. I do have an especially keen sense of detail which was verified in a psychological evaluation.

    I will attempt to provoke thought by possibly being a Devil's advocate, BUT I WILL NOT FORCE ANY IDEA ON ANYBODY.

    I will suggest the absurd and the silly. Usually there is something to be learned from that.

    The editor of the professional publication of the International Society of Automation's magazine called Intech reccomended as a SOUND design method. He also said that management (you in this case) does not understand the approach. The usual management response is "No, you can't do it that way" which is how you answered.

    Anything I say is meant to provoke thought only.

    I never nixed the selected power supply, did I? The meter turned out fine. I just noted the deficiencies. Those dificiencies DID NOT have to be remedied.

    Basically, over time, (sleeping probably), I thought of alternatives which mimicked education over time.

    The college lab had a function generator, power supplies, a powered breadboard and a scope as the absolute minimum stuff on the bench.

    Soldering was not taught AT ALL.

    I never said; Don't get xyz. I may have presented reasons not to get xyz, but I never said don't get it.
    I did say the strong reasons not to get it was: "Welder capabilities and ripple.

    All comments generally assume an infinate source of money/resources. That is not a bad initial assumption either. From there you discover:

    What is the ultimate?
    What do I want?
    What do I absolutely have to have?
    What can I afford?
    What is the upgrade path?

    It works for programming too. I managed a team which was me and another guy and that program ran on a computer for 17 years with absoluely no changes until the platform changed, The technology that I wanted to adopt was vetoed (primarily cost), but implemented 17 years later. It was an $80,000 USD project at the time.

    The OP probably has to think about the folllowing:

    Multimeter (check)
    Tools
    Breadboard
    Power supply(s)
    Function generator

    Not in any order.

    So, you tear them apart with my version of who, what, where, when and why?

    I really liked your power supply table. I really did. I'm totally happy with the meter selected and Justin selected it. Not you and not me. He used all of the pros and cons and selected a meter with afford ability factored in.

    I generally wasn't allowed to do the final selection. I had to present options with the pros and cons. Whatever the boss selected, he lived with the decision, not me.

    You might be teaching "What to think" where I'm teaching "How to think". There's a BIG difference.

    Justin selected the power supply!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  13. Musicmanager

    Musicmanager Active Member

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    One has to wonder why you would join a discussion forum when you are not prepared to discuss, only dictate !

    Whilst your opinions are as valid as those of any other member, you are so far up your own backend that the only thing that is infallible is your inability to break wind .. .. .. .. crap on the other hand seems to escape from every orifice !

    I am very much a newbie, a novice or whatever you want to call it and I have had and continue to get good advice and help from many members on here including those you deride .. .. .. I'm very concerned that inexperience leaves Justin in an impressionable and easily misguided position and in my opinion you've certainly shown him where the garden path is, if nothing more.

    I outlined this to Justin yesterday, urging him to form his own opinions and pointing out that I had managed very nicely with some simple homemade equipment. Indeed, I also supported the choice of the £40 PSU .. .. .. you asked for details of my homemade equipment, which I sent but, because you failed to notice the acknowledgement of it's shortcomings in the details sent, you then embarked on an unnecessary critique ending with .. ... throw it in the bin and buy a £40 PSU from Ebay.

    You may know all there is to know about electronics but precious little about talking to people !

    S
     
  14. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Musicmanager has been here over a year. He came here with ZERO knowledge of the hobby. He's got an accountant (wife). Same as Justin. Ideally, he should pull the most weight. I remember his exploits being at least: programming, building a power supply and fixing lots of the same thing. I doubt he's needed a "welder" (High Current Power Supply) yet.

    Maybe it's time to ask Musicmanager the following: Pick 4+ things that were most important to you learning the hobby?
    ps: I forgot about the magnifier.
     
  15. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Presumptuous nonsense. I discuss things a lot. I also let things go when people are talking absolute nonsense just like you did about that PSU you claimed to have made. Further more I retracted my statement just because you were upset- so much for knowing how to talk to people.

    I never said anything about other peoples opinions being valied or otherwise. In fact, I value constructive comments. You are inventing things.

    Grow up. Ad hominim attacks have no place on ETO. This is a technical site with people who are interested in technical matters. Personality does not come into it

    What you are or are not is not relevant here. Neither is what you continue to get or do not get. You are just a member on ETO just like everyone else on ETO not some wise old jocular adjudicator who tries to engratiate himself with a load of waffle.


    You are off again with your Is and general waffle. I can assure you that Justin has a lot more sense than you give him credit for. I think you are full of BS. You are not concerned about Justin at all- just making a presence and also again trying to ingratiate yourself. There are no facts anywhere in what you say. Just hot air.

    Now we are getting to the core of your problem with me- you do not like to admit that you are wrong. And to put things in perspective. You were the one who dismissed all the work I have done on PSUs saying effectively that there are N other views equally as good. That is rubbish. And as you have brought the subject of your power supply up. I can tell you that my advice is good. And if you are truly interested in getting into electronics that is the way forward. As for the advice you claim to be so good- once again trying to ingratiate yourself- you were badly advised in the extreme. Even a cursory analysis of the approach should have told you that the it had no chance of success. In fact I will bet that all you have is a box of bits. You are trying to have it both ways. Firstly you effectively counter the advice which I offered Justin. Secondly you suggested that your approach was a way forward. Then when I asked you about your circuit you said it was a heap of junk. You are also being devious. I explained that I posted that factual critique to be helpful and that I posted it in error. I wrote an email to you about it but you didn't have the good manners to reply.

    More presumptions. No where have I said anything about knowing all there is to know about electronics- that is ludicrous anyway. As far as knowing how to talk to people that is not for me to say or you- you presume too much.

    I am the injured party here. Practically every time I post a design on ETO someone, often the two parties mentioned, will pop up and critise it without having a clue how the circuit works. I am very patient with them.You obviously are so involved with your own feelings that you haven't read what has been going on.

    You are an exhibitionist. The sort of rant you have delivered is quite out of order. If you have to behave in such an extraordinary manner why didn't you do it in a PM.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  16. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I would just like to add this point. I regard Keep as a friend- we often communicate by PM. I also like AudioGuru- he is great fun. Both are technically very knowledgeable and have advised me well in a number of areas. The only complaint I have is the constant hounding which makes life difficult for me. Belive it or not I also like MusicManager- we also exchange PMs.

    The little sword fight you have just seen is just an aside- I am only really interested in design and having a laugh :)
     
  17. Justin Verrall

    Justin Verrall Member

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    I'm working with what I can. Sometimes I will listen to spec and sometimes I won't and I'll listen to someone else. The one thing I do know is how to think for myself I will take into account as much as I can and will make an informed decision based on what I think will work best in my favour it just so happened that spec has been the most understandable and informative so far that does not mean I will listen to him 100% of the time. As I have proven I will be be more then happy to disregard his opinion in favour of my own if I feel what I have found or what someone else is saying is more practical for me so although I am new to this I'm not someone who will follow someones advice blindly. If it makes little to no sense to me I will ask for a more detailed explanation if I still don't understand I will ask for links that might help or I will find them myself and if I still don't understand I will disregard the information till I can come back to it when I've learnt a little bit more. Thank you all for the concern and help I really do appreciate it! :)
     
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  18. StellarRat

    StellarRat Member

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    Justin: If you want cheap parts just ask friends and family if they have some electronics that are unused or going to be thrown out. Thrift and used goods stores are good too. There are wealth of parts to be harvested from old equipment. Some of them are quite valuable particularly if they are obsolete and hard to find (like old plate variable capacitors from radios.) A lot of this stuff is nearly immortal. You just have to determine what the part is and nearly all of them have some labeling you can look up on the web.
     
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  19. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Now there is some good advice- as you say you can get a stack of very expensive components for next to nothing. But just a word of caution and it is nothing to do with electronics. If you are not careful you can turn into a horder and contract hordermeliconalitus. This comes on gradually but finally ends up in a chronic condition where you can't get into your garage/workshop or parts of your house and your wife leaves. I am cured now after long therapy but the danger is ever present, especially when passing roadside skips (dumpsters).
     
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  20. Justin Verrall

    Justin Verrall Member

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    I would but non of my friends have the kind of money needed to be able to go through electronics and most Thrift and used goods stores are to far away for me to travail to but I will keep it in mind. I should probably get myself a desoldering station so I don't have to worry about burning parts then
     
  21. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    A desoldering station would be excellent to own but falls into the decedent category of my lists. To start with you will probably be dealing with through hole components. To start you can do a lot of salvage work and repair work with:

    (1) Good soldering iron, preferably with temperature control,
    (2) A reel of Soder Wick
    (3) Can of rosin flux
    (4) Wire cutters precision
    (5) Pliers fine precision
    (6) Set of electronic tweezers etc (not expensive)
    (7) Solder sucker (not expensive)
    (8) Reel of solder lead/tin Rosin cored

    Some form of vice/clamp would be useful to hold items while you are woking on them
     

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