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I Want to build a simple tracking device....................

Discussion in 'Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews' started by yashtherebel, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. quixotron

    quixotron New Member

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    God Bless America!
    Have a dentist fill your molars with gold or copper clad aluminum caps, Place a pin diode in series with a 1.5 K resistor and then parallel it with a RC circuit, use C < 10uF. Tune it to 216 Mhz, this is the band that the aliens receive on.

    Eat a sour lemon, and begin sending coded pulses into outer space. the modulation encoding procedure can be found in Communications Systems 4th edition by Simon Haykin, page 455, read backwards.

    The aliens should be homing in on you. when they arrive, say "Klauu Tu Barada Nikto" They will understand.


    and DON"T TELL ANYONE!
     
  2. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    I don't know why but i kinda feel like insulted from that post....maybe, there are any moderators on this site to control that kind of posts.
    that's sounds great. perhaps, i should do the samething Joking around as you do.

    Is anyone can comes up w/ sipmly better receiver & tranceiver idea which can overcome the one from Spain?
    not from United States??
    or I'm just wasting time asking that from here am I ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2008
  3. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I would suggest your requirements are well beyond what's reasonable - if the Spanish ones meets your requirements, I would suggesting buying it.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    Hey Falconer,

    Don't worry about it--he was responding to the original thread poster, not to you. That's one reason why it's a good idea to start your own new thread instead of asking questions in someone else'e thread.

    I'm not able to answer that question, but from what I know about it, it sounds like what you're asking for is almost science fiction. Fifty miles line-of-sight would be very impressive, and 50 miles in the city would be Star Trek at the weight you are talking about.

    Then again, I haven't tried to build anything like that, so I could be totally wrong. :)

    Do you have a datasheet for the Spanish device?


    Torben
     
  6. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    tracking device

    Sorry, torben. I have to decline of your request of posting spain's tracking site.. you can find that google it by yourself it's pretty easy. i can't put anymore info on this worldwide electrics site.
    if you can comes up better schematics plz, give me a notice. so you can send me by email instead of posting on it. something tells me it's getting bit dangerous.
    about Star trek tech just look at your cell phone or i pod ...that's just about samething how much technology has been changed. i bet you can easily build that transmitter & receivers.
    i have a good impressions that you may be the record breaker!!! future follows you.
    good luck
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2008
  7. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    Um...OK. I don't know how you think searching for that thing on google is "easy" without having a name or model number, but whatever.

    Why on Earth can't you post a link to the datasheet? You're asking for help, so you should be the one providing all the information you already have so that people can help you.

    No, this is a public forum, and any help should be posted for all to see and make use of. If you need private help you should hire a tutor.

    "Dangerous" how? Is there a black van parked across the street or something? I have no idea what you're talking about.

    You'd lose that bet--no way I could build a cell phone. I could maybe buy a transmitter/receiver chip pair which could do the RF work, but a 50-mile range? Cell phones don't have a 50-mile range. There's a reason they put cell towers everywhere: cell phones just don't have a huge range, especially not in a messy city environment. Read this for more information.

    Cell phones are designed by companies with large development labs and huge budgets, not home hobbyists.

    A 50-mile RF transmitter is certainly possible, and a transmitter which is small and light enough for a falcon to carry is also possible--but making an RF transmitter which has a reliable 50-mile range, in the city, which is light enough for a falcon to carry--that is much harder.

    I don't think I'll be leading the future in this one. :) If the big rich companies with lots of engineers can't figure out how to make it, I don't think I'm likely to invent it out in my work shed.

    Anyway, there is no reason for you not to post a link to the datasheet of the device you have mentioned if you have it, or at least a name and model number so that we could try to google for it.

    Good luck with your project, though. It would be very cool if someone were to create something like this. I don't think it's very likely, but it would be very cool. When I search for falconry transmitters, the most powerful ones I find claim a range of 30 miles under "ideal line-of-sight" conditions--which means *not* in the city.


    Torben
     
  8. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    Hi, Torben
    Thanks for the replies

    Um...OK. I don't know how you think searching for that thing on google is "easy" without having a name or model number, but whatever.

    Why on Earth can't you post a link to the datasheet? You're asking for help, so you should be the one providing all the information you already have so that people can help you.

    ---Well, Just google it and find that out.
    transmitter should be as long as it's light and small, emitting strong signals that's all matters.
    receiver doesn't need to be that great. as long as it has a atenuator, cw functions, signal strength meter,..etc...well, basically a fox hunting receiver.


    No, this is a public forum, and any help should be posted for all to see and make use of. If you need private help you should hire a tutor.

    "Dangerous" how? Is there a black van parked across the street or something? I have no idea what you're talking about.

    --- well, some crazy people out there thinks use of this device for something i was bit afraid of....



    You'd lose that bet--no way I could build a cell phone. I could maybe buy a transmitter/receiver chip pair which could do the RF work, but a 50-mile range? Cell phones don't have a 50-mile range. There's a reason they put cell towers everywhere: cell phones just don't have a huge range, especially not in a messy city environment. Read this for more information.

    Cell phones are designed by companies with large development labs and huge budgets, not home hobbyists.


    --I don't know when i said that you are able to build cell phone. yeah, I know how compacted that is i'm aware that not that many people able to just duplicate those.

    A 50-mile RF transmitter is certainly possible, and a transmitter which is small and light enough for a falcon to carry is also possible--but making an RF transmitter which has a reliable 50-mile range, in the city, which is light enough for a falcon to carry--that is much harder.

    ---true, it's certainly difficult in a city or buildings around...waves bounces around between buildings. to find out direction will be harder in that situations to. yeah, i think i learned that waves echos ...lol
    perhaps, one can bounce it to the sky ....so you can convey much further?

    I don't think I'll be leading the future in this one. :) If the big rich companies with lots of engineers can't figure out how to make it, I don't think I'm likely to invent it out in my work shed.

    --- well, some of the top microchips are available everywhere. it's not same as just a Ic stones back then but still a type of micro chips.


    --- well, i don't want this guy(from spain) to loose his bussiness of his own you see? we can duplicate or make a better one but that's not my objectives. but i found a cool site to show you
    http://members.aol.com/joemoell/bat05.html
    You'll see too many bats in that site and might makes you sick.

    it would be very cool. When I search for falconry transmitters, the most powerful ones I find claim a range of 30 miles under "ideal line-of-sight" conditions--which means *not* in the city.

    --- true. every transmitters company says like that. in fact i 've got 5miles range tranceivers and in a city probably 1 mile ranges . when i got 20 miles range tranceivers I got about 4 miles range in city!! lol
    --that experience make me start to think that stronger signals still able to emmit signals to the some distances. let's say a transmitter able to emit in sight line 200 miles in line of sight...lol it will able to send signals 50miles in a city !!! theoritically , it's possible but in reality, maybe not....200 miles... it's like a marine class communication and possibly it's need huge battery comsumptions and huge antennas. or maybe after when i was doing ham radio was about 25 years ago... so, time & technologies has change a much more about that point....lol or am I just dreaming way too hard? I wonder how that bat's site guys made his transmitter & receivers....must be it's a factry made & so many smart engineers guys and huge money behind it. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2008
  9. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    The article describes tracking devices, most of which lasted one month or less. They don't say that the receivers were in a city.
     
  10. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    tracking device

    http://members.aol.com/joemoell/bat05.html

    True. the receiver performance is very important . however the distances of signals are decided by transmitter's performances.
    in this picture the transmitter is as small as a penny and it's handmade by an Amature American Ham radio operator who does Fox hunting as a hobby.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 9, 2008
  11. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    torben.
    you wrote that
    <quote>
    A 50-mile RF transmitter is certainly possible, and a transmitter which is small and light enough for a falcon to carry is also possible--but making an RF transmitter which has a reliable 50-mile range, in the city, which is light enough for a falcon to carry--that is much harder.

    --that is much harder you said. so, you can't comes up with schematics for that? or it's just impossible to you?
     
  12. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    As you've been a radio ham you should know the problems concerned, to get large distances you need POWER, and for power you need LARGE batteries - none of this is helpful on a falcon.
     
  13. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's certainly impossible for me at this point in my education, but I have read enough to feel that it would not be easy even for an experienced professional. And in a city there are just so many variables such as building interference and other sources of RF to worry about.

    I also suspect that as soon as someone *did* figure it out, it would appear for sale somewhere. Any company making these things would *love* to be the first to say "light enough to be carried by a falcon but strong enough to reliably transmit 50 miles in the city". So far I haven't found anybody who claims to make something like that (but I've only looked a little).

    RF design is not easy, certainly not for the electronics beginner. There are all kinds of things to think about, such as bandwidth (it must not interfere with other RF communications), power demand (what kind of battery would be required to power it, and how much would it weigh?), and other things. Even things like the length and shape of the connections between the components become important at RF.

    Then again, I don't know what your training and experience are like, and what kind of test equipment you have available.


    Torben
     
  14. penoy_balut

    penoy_balut New Member

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    Last edited: Feb 10, 2008
  15. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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  16. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    Nigel thanks for the replies.
    Well, You tell me that smart old Ham radio operator's having a head burned with power tweaked out RH radios or CB radio 8wheel trucker guy's hands are burned out by the super boosted rigs that they have ? or Do you think i'll put a giant RF walkie-talkies on a bird 's body or something? as i wrote it before it will simply emit beeping sounds from the tiny tiny transmitter operation life is around 1 year w/ about 30miles in line...& it's been already in a markets. and i haven't seen any of the birds buring up while flying high. except antennas touched with electric towers. but do you think i'll not gonna coat antenna's with any kind of materials? i bet i will.
    the transmitter should be like a size of your pinky, Nigel! it will be a size of your pinky! alright? lol
    Do you think i'll need a large car battery to do that? Nigel? so i can hook it up with dash board rf rig's you are thinking about just to send simple "beeping sounds" to distances??
    Should i just go ahead to the carparts shop and get "Die-Hard" car batteries? & put on a little bird's back? Nigel? Should I really do that on birds? is that's your suggestions over this thread titled --making a small simple tracking transmitters & receiver? that's a great thinking, Nigel. Way to go! Nigel! You've saved and helped many people on this site about 21800 times over the years which you posted. i can hear people thanking you from all of the worlds for your efforts on this forum.
    People should learn from your best of your inteligences. you should put a potato sack full of potatoes and then make a potatoes batteries out of it , put it on your back and walk around blocks down on a streets of your Derbyshire, UK? then tell me you are right all about everything.
    You'll understand what i'm asking for very clearly. so crystal clear that by then with salty sweats of yours will wash away too many impurities out of your system.
    is anyone wants a Sweaty & Salty, Fish & Chips advices from Derbyshire, UK??!!! anyone?!! LMAO

    a great joke deserves a great joke in returns, right? Nigel? LMAO
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2008
  17. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    What on earth are you rambling about?.

    If that spec meets your requirements (it wasn't what you asked for!), then buy it!.

    The link you posted earlier about bats didn't claim anywhere near that range, and suggested 2 to 3 miles - which sounds a far more possible range for a bird or bat to carry.
     
  18. Falconer

    Falconer Banned

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    Lmao! You didn't get a joke did you?

    when we were talking about bat site's... we were talking about size of transmitters that how small can be. yeah, How small it can be & should be.
    it could be like your pinky size.lol
    now, this is the one from the market

    http://www.merlin-systems.com/falconry/fmv.htm
    It's even smaller than your pinky isn't it? LOL

    Well, that's because it's from the manifuctures and it's extreamly slim.
    I wonder where is the batteries & what is the distances in line ....wow! whooping 30miles in line? how that's possible?!!!! LMAO how many birds died of using such a signal powers?

    Yes, the transmitter should be to carried by a birds.

    and i'm thinking of building one which obiously little bigger & but much stronger in signals emitions than that one above.
    as this forums titles it's says...
    Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews--- Are you building an electronic project or you want to?... and solution to me is not buying one. because it's clearly says... "Project" now, do you think "project" means going to the market to buy somehing? NO.
    it's call "shoping".... like your mom does everyday.
    "Project" means build something in here. I wish i could wear a ladie's clothes every night and walk around like you might doing over there in Fancy county UK. Nigel? I think it's call in English ---"Transvestites" RIGHT??? LMAO

    if i'm buying it why i just choose something from the anyweb sites and why did I vist here & asking some questions for "Electrics Projects" on here ?!!! LOL
    Does it make sence to you? Mr. Nigel Goodwin from Derbyshire, UK?

    plz, Give Thanks to Nigel Goodwin from Derbyshire, UK for reading this forums thread very carefully everyday & Actually giving us a great advices everytime to everyone here in this sites from all over the world. You've been very helpfull for all of us. :D

    P.S. Nigel? if you can't comes up with any schematics for this simple apprications why you keep bothering posting as many post as you do on my post?
    Can you just tell me instead that you don't have that much of intelligence to build one but you might know someone who has a knowleges to complete my projects or something?
    can you do that next time? it's much easier for you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2008
  19. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Perhaps you might consider that abusing a moderator isn't a good idea?.
     
  20. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    I don't know that consideration is his strong point. I can understand him not taking my word for it but I would suggest that listening to you and RadioRon is a pretty good idea.


    Torben
     
  21. RadioRon

    RadioRon Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of adding to a dead thread, I noted the objections of the poster and thought perhaps my previous range and power predictions were in error. So I recalculated with some bold new assumptions and found that it is indeed technically feasible to make the requested range. Here's how:

    The poster's requirements and assumptions included frequency=216 MHz, tx antenna length of 29 cm, battery voltage of about 3.5 V (don't remember for sure), small size and light weight.

    I began by considering what is the best way to get maximum range and the answer is to assume the narrowest possible bandwidth in the receiver. For example, if the transmitter simply keyed on and off at a regular and relatively slow interval a simple unmodulated carrier, we could practically use a receiver with 400 Hz bandwidth. This assumes a very good crystal calibration setting in the transmitter. With such a narrow receiver and assuming everything about it is optimized, we could achieve a sensitivity of about -141 dBm.

    I modelled the transmit antenna and found that it would be difficult but not impossible to match to. The match is best done with a center feed, where Z=10-j758. If end fed, Z=16-j4000 which is much tougher to manage. The antenna ideal gain would be 1.8 dBi, but with practical matching and some resistive losses, we can say it will be closer to 0 dBi in free space. However, when attached to the falcon, we might lose a bit of power due to body losses and detuning, so I chose a figure of -4 dBi for the overall tx gain (which I feel is a bit optimistic).

    I assume the use of a good yagi or equivalent gain antenna at the receiver, and pegged the gain at 10 dBi to be generous, although this large an antenna is harder to hold up by hand. I also assumed a receiver noise figure of 2 dB and a necessary C/N ratio of 5 dB to decode the resulting tone reasonably well (although a human ear could do better). The receiver is a linear type (ie. CW/SSB) not an FM one.

    I used the Egli equation for plane earth loss over the range requested of 50 miles (80 km). I assumed the bird is at 307m (1000 feet) and the receive antenna is held up over the head at 2m height and that there are no buildings or hills of any sort in between. I also ignored polarization mismatch and assumed that the antenna on the bird is radiating its peak lobe broadside to our position (in other words, ideal positioning). The calculated path loss is 155 dB.

    Using all these figures to calculate transmit power, as follows:

    -174dBm (KTB)+26 dB (for bw)+2dB (nf)+5 dB(c/n required)-10 dB(Grx)+155 dB (path loss) +4 dB(Gtx) = 8 dBm

    8 dBm for the transmitter is reasonable and achievable in the size and weight requested.

    Unfortunately, I do not have a circuit schematic to offer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2008

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