Help required to complete ???

[yusuf]

yusuf, as you mentioned, if no water then you wait for 30min to start the pump again, i just surprised why? you can immediately start the pump when water is available. say if the pump has just stopped due to non availability of water & after 1min if water is available then why should you want your system to wait till 29 min more to start again?? whereas you can make it to work instantly...

If water supply doesn't comes in 10 minutes then it will turn off the pump and again restart it after 30 minutes to fill it.. because tanks is empty...

 

[mbarazeen]

If water supply doesn't comes in 10 minutes then it will turn off the pump and again restart it after 30 minutes to fill it.. because tanks is empty...

so there is a chance the pump will run dry for 10min? then the cycle starts after 30min to check again a 10min....ok if water comes? the pump will rum more than 10min? ie continue to run? or still stops after 10min?

 

[yusuf]

so there is a chance the pump will run dry for 10min? then the cycle starts after 30min to check again a 10min....ok if water comes? the pump will rum more than 10min? ie continue to run? or still stops after 10min?

no after 10 minutes if the tank is empty then it will turn off the pump and restart after 30 minutes.. as the tank is empty...

if water comes then pump will run until the tank becomes full...

and if in between water goes(or water doesn't comes) then it will turn off the pump..... and then restart after 30 minutes and it repeats...

 

[mbarazeen]

no after 10 minutes if the tank is empty then it will turn off the pump and restart after 30 minutes.. as the tank is empty...

if water comes then pump will run until the tank becomes full...

and if in between water goes(or water doesn't comes) then it will turn off the pump..... and then restart after 30 minutes and it repeats...

if i understand you correctly.....what you basicaly want to do is to start the pump when there is a demand (tank empty) for 10min and stop for 30min, till the tank becomes full it will be repeated. if no water available to pump either at start or during operation then the pump stops and check the condition again to satisfy after 30min..

if you want to impliment this for domestic real application then i adwise you not go go with timer...instead you use only sensors to keep your tank level witin the limit you set by sensors....

still your explanation is not clear to me to understand your requirement, some times you can explain in better way by graphical explanation for by a flow chart if you are comfortable with it

 

[yusuf]

if i understand you correctly.....what you basicaly want to do is to start the pump when there is a demand (tank empty) for 10min and stop for 30min, till the tank becomes full it will be repeated. if no water available to pump either at start or during operation then the pump stops and check the condition again to satisfy after 30min..

if you want to impliment this for domestic real application then i adwise you not go go with timer...instead you use only sensors to keep your tank level witin the limit you set by sensors....

still your explanation is not clear to me to understand your requirement, some times you can explain in better way by graphical explanation for by a flow chart if you are comfortable with it

Thanks for your reply !!!

I have attached my Flo-chart please have a look !!

 

[mbarazeen]

ok, a good explaination about your idea, the term water sensor as you mention has to be refred as flow sensor or flow switch in control engineering. do you want this project to be done using PIC? i have no experience with PIC but some one can guide you for writing the codes.

 

[yusuf]

I only want to complete this project ... IT is not necessary that this project should be done with PIC ...
If you can help me friend then welcome....

If we can accomplish this project without PIC then It is also fine...
my friend...

 

[dougy83]

Hi yusuf. Do you have a means to program a PIC? Or maybe know someone locally that can program one? If you do, I can write the code based on your flowchart if it helps.

 

[yusuf]

ya ? dougy83 ...

I was thinking to use PIC because It consumes less space .. and it is best for my project.....

and Friend I dont have any friend which have PIC programming knowledge except you.. !


SO can you help me dougy83 ??

 

[dougy83]

As I said, I can write the code.

You mentioned you're in India? It's quite expensive to post anything overseas from here, which is why I'd suggest you find someone local that has a programming tool to program the PIC for you.

 

[yusuf]

Friend I can do... I have confident ... I will buy PIC programming tools and I hope I can program ... because the suppliers who will send the PIC programming tools will also send a booklet to start...

I just need complete circuit of my project and code...

else I will buy the PIC micro-controller and I have confident if you are with me then I can surely complete..

here in India pic programming tools suppliers are available...
Thanks

 

[alec_t]

Although it won't affect the PIC coding, you may have to consider adding an electrically-operated valve to your system if the pump is of the impeller type; otherwise water could flow through the pump under the supply pressure even if the pump is not running.

 

[yusuf]

Friend here by doing very hard work I have made a circuit which I have attached in my attachment..

And the working of this circuit are as follows :
=============================================================================


We will start the sequence with the tank FULL - and the timer PAUSED

Twist the EMPTY wires together - but keep the FULL and the WATER wires separated - as in the drawing.

Turn on the power.

The green LED should be lighting - and the other two LEDs should be off.





THE Control IC (Ic2)

Pins 1 & 2 should be low
Pin 3 should be high.
The green LED should be lighting

Pins 5 & 6 should be high
Pin 4 should be Low.
The red LED should be off

Pins 12 & 13 should be high
Pin 11 should be low.
Pin 11 should hold pin 1 of the timer IC low.
And the timer should be PAUSED
With the yellow LED off

Pins 8 & 9 of Ic2 should be high
Pin 10 should be Low.
And the blue LED should be off.



Separate the EMPTY wires - to simulate an empty tank.

Pins 8 & 9 of Ic1 should go high
And pin 10 should go low.

Pin 10 should take pins 5 & 6 of Ic2 low - through D5
Pin 4 should go high
And the red LED should light.

Pins 1 & 2 of Ic2 should go high.
Pin 3 should go low -
And the green LED should switch off.

Pins 12 & 13 should go low
Pin 11 should go high
Pin 11 should take pin 1 of Ic1 high
And the timer should start to run.
Wait a while - to confirm it's running properly.

Pins 8 & 9 of Ic2 should still be high
Pin 10 should still be low
And the blue LED should still be off.



REMEMBER THAT THE TANK CANNOT BE FULL AND EMPTY AT THE SAME TIME.

ALWAYS - start by reconnecting the EMPTY wires -
To simulate the tank BEGINNING to fill.

Pins 8 & 9 of Ic1 should go low.
And pin 10 should go high.

The tank is now FILLING - But not yet full.
So the red LED should continue to light
The green LED should remain off.
And the timer should continue to run
Wait a while - to confirm it's still running properly.


NEXT

Touch the FULL wires together BRIEFLY.

Pins 1 & 2 of Ic2 should go low
Pin 3 should go high
And the Green LED should light

Pins 5 & 6 should go high
Pin 4 should go low
And the red LED should switch off.

Pins 12 & 13 should go high
And pin 11 should go low.
Pin 11 should take pin 1 of Ic1 low
And the timer should PAUSE -
With the yellow LED off.

Pins 8 & 9 of Ic2 should still be high
Pin 10 should still be low
And the blue LED should still be off.



THIS TAKES US BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED.

==============================================================================

But the problem is ....


When the EMPTY (or LOW) sensor opens - it enables the timer output.

If - at that time - the timer is in the ON phase - the pump will start straight away.

And - if the timer is in the OFF phase - the pump will start WITHIN 30 minutes.



The timer is powering-up at the beginning of the OFF phase

So the pump will begin to run after 30 minutes.

And I want That It should to start the pump immediately - without the previous delay.

and after starting the pump it should check the availability of water for 10 minutes and if water doesn't comes
then it will turn off the pump and restart after 30 minutes... and this repeats untill the tank becomes full..

========
As the water comes , water sensor will detect the water and pause the timer and the pump will continue to run..
but the second problem.... is ... if the water supply goes in between before the tank is full, the pump will keep on running..
I want If the water is available ,start the pump(As my circuit does) but as the water goes it will not turn off the pump but it will wait for 10 minutes and check the availability of water(If water comes then it will pause the timer and the pump will continue to run) else it will turn off the motor and restart after 30 minutes.. and this repeats until the tank becomes full...
===

Thanks in advance...

 

[mbarazeen]

what if you eliminate your timer? say if tank empty and water available pump starts. if no water & tank empty pump doesnt run until water is available. pum stops only when tank is full. then again will start when tank becomes empty? i dont understand why you want to make it using a timer????

Edit: if the idea is to keep the tank filled time to time, then you can set tank empty sensor to be active when water level comes down bellow a level....if its for me i will NOT use a timer....i have installed a controller at my mother in laws house that monitors water in two tanks, one is on the building top and another is on the ground...it just works fine and always keep the top tank filled to a certain level. also my mother in law overrides the pimp manually every day morning so that the tanks comes full and teh pump stops...

 

[Tilamsik]

Although it won't affect the PIC coding, you may have to consider adding an electrically-operated valve to your system if the pump is of the impeller type; otherwise water could flow through the pump under the supply pressure even if the pump is not running.

@ yusuf

Maybe its better to have a small tank reservoir on the inlet before the pump with a float valve to control flow in of water in the reservoir. In this way, you don't need an impeller type pump. This will also avoid complain by your neighbor to have low water pressure everytime water pumps was turned on. Water pump will turn on longer depend on the size of reservoir. This also avoid higher power consumption of water pump motor due to frequent start and stop of pump. As we know, Startup current of electrical motor was higher than its running current.
Maybe with this configuration you will not need the timer.

 

[4pyros]

OK yusuf;
You only need two sensors and no controller or timer. Sensor one will detect when water is avalible. Sensor two will detect when the tank is full. Wire both in series with the motor and you are done. The pump will run if there is water avalible and the tank is not full. If water is not avalible or if the tank is full the pump will stop. You must detect if water is avalible otherwise you will burn up your pump. You cant run pumps without water.
Andy

 

[yusuf]

I don't understand why you want to make it using a timer????

Friend Thanks for your reply.. but
The need of timer is :
As you all know this project is automated tank filler project.In which it will keep the tank full without any physical movement..

Think .....
As the tank is empty the red led will glow (Green led will turn off) and the timer will start to run.....
First I will check 10 minutes for water supply ....
If water comes between 10 minutes then I will continue to run until the tank becomes full....
Else it will turn off the pump...
And restart after 30 minutes..

Because Tank is empty and it need to be fulll.. so it will restart the motor pump after 30 minutes..
So here the use of time arises..
If there is no timer here , we will have to switch on / off the motor...
As I stay in India , here there is no fixed time of water supply to come.. it comes anytime..

Si here by adding the timer circuit it can check the water supply in every 30 minutes untill the tank is full..
The use of timer here will tackle the problem of any physical interactions...

If suppose that we remove the timer...
Just Think a minute ......

As tank gets empty it will the start the motor pump and it will continue to run untill the tank becomes full...
If suppose that water comes immediately as tank gets empty then it will also continue to run untill the tank becomes full.
But a wait a second ....
If the tank gets empty and water doesn't comes , water comes after 2 hr.. then what will happen here...
2 hr continue running of water pump is useless and it can also burn...
Forget the 2hr , it will keep on running until the water comes or any one turn off the pump...

So by adding timer here ...... it make sense...
That as the tank gets empty it will first check the water supply for 10 minutes.. As the condition of India is if water is willing to come it comes under 10 minutes..
So looking this system ... I added 10 minutes timer....
SO first it will check the water supply for 10 minutes if water supply doesn't comes in between 10 minutes then it will turn off the motor pump.... by as the tank is empty.. it will again turn on the in every 30 minutes and check the water supply until the tank becomes full..
===============

But Friends I have completed this all but some problem are present here and I need your help to accomplish it...

My Problem is :

==================
But the problem is ....


When the EMPTY (or LOW) sensor opens - it enables the timer output.

If - at that time - the timer is in the ON phase - the pump will start straight away.

And - if the timer is in the OFF phase - the pump will start WITHIN 30 minutes.



The timer is powering-up at the beginning of the OFF phase

So the pump will begin to run after 30 minutes.

And I want That It should to start the pump immediately - without the previous delay.

and after starting the pump it should check the availability of water for 10 minutes and if water doesn't comes
then it will turn off the pump and restart after 30 minutes... and this repeats untill the tank becomes full..

========
As the water comes , water sensor will detect the water and pause the timer and the pump will continue to run..
but the second problem.... is ... if the water supply goes in between before the tank is full, the pump will keep on running..
I want If the water is available ,start the pump(As my circuit does) but as the water goes it will not turn off the pump but it will wait for 10 minutes and check the availability of water(If water comes then it will pause the timer and the pump will continue to run) else it will turn off the motor and restart after 30 minutes.. and this repeats until the tank becomes full...
==========

SO kindly have a look here and I extremely need your help... Because without your help I will not able to accomplish it... '

Thanks..

 

[yusuf]

I don't understand why you want to make it using a timer????

Friend Thanks for your reply.. but
The need of timer is :
As you all know this project is automated tank filler project.In which it will keep the tank full without any physical movement..

Think .....
As the tank is empty the red led will glow (Green led will turn off) and the timer will start to run.....
First It will check 10 minutes for water supply ....
If water comes between 10 minutes then It will continue to run until the tank becomes full....
Else it will turn off the pump...
And restart after 30 minutes..

Because Tank is empty and it need to be fulll.. so it will restart the motor pump after 30 minutes..
So here the use of time arises..
If there is no timer here , we will have to switch on / off the motor...
As I stay in India , here there is no fixed time of water supply to come.. it comes anytime..

Si here by adding the timer circuit it can check the water supply in every 30 minutes untill the tank is full..
The use of timer here will tackle the problem of any physical interactions...

If suppose that we remove the timer...
Just Think a minute ......

As tank gets empty it will the start the motor pump and it will continue to run untill the tank becomes full...
If suppose that water comes immediately as tank gets empty then it will also continue to run untill the tank becomes full.
But a wait a second ....
If the tank gets empty and water doesn't comes , water comes after 2 hr.. then what will happen here...
2 hr continue running of water pump is useless and it can also burn...
Forget the 2hr , it will keep on running until the water comes or any one turn off the pump...

So by adding timer here ...... it make sense...
That as the tank gets empty it will first check the water supply for 10 minutes.. As the condition of India is if water is willing to come it comes under 10 minutes..
So looking this system ... I added 10 minutes timer....
SO first it will check the water supply for 10 minutes if water supply doesn't comes in between 10 minutes then it will turn off the motor pump.... by as the tank is empty.. it will again turn on the in every 30 minutes and check the water supply until the tank becomes full..
===============

But Friends I have completed this all but some problem are present here and I need your help to accomplish it...

My Problem is :

==================
But the problem is ....


When the EMPTY (or LOW) sensor opens - it enables the timer output.

If - at that time - the timer is in the ON phase - the pump will start straight away.

And - if the timer is in the OFF phase - the pump will start WITHIN 30 minutes.



The timer is powering-up at the beginning of the OFF phase

So the pump will begin to run after 30 minutes.

And I want That It should to start the pump immediately - without the previous delay.

and after starting the pump it should check the availability of water for 10 minutes and if water doesn't comes
then it will turn off the pump and restart after 30 minutes... and this repeats untill the tank becomes full..

========
As the water comes , water sensor will detect the water and pause the timer and the pump will continue to run..
but the second problem.... is ... if the water supply goes in between before the tank is full, the pump will keep on running..
I want If the water is available ,start the pump(As my circuit does) but as the water goes it will not turn off the pump but it will wait for 10 minutes and check the availability of water(If water comes then it will pause the timer and the pump will continue to run) else it will turn off the motor and restart after 30 minutes.. and this repeats until the tank becomes full...
==========

SO kindly have a look here and I extremely need your help... Because without your help I will not able to accomplish it... '

Thanks..

 

[mbarazeen]

You only need two sensors and no controller or timer. Sensor one will detect when water is avalible. Sensor two will detect when the tank is full. Wire both in series with the motor and you are done. The pump will run if there is water avalible and the tank is not full. If water is not avalible or if the tank is full the pump will stop. You must detect if water is avalible otherwise you will burn up your pump. You cant run pumps without water.
Andy

Andy... what will happen when the tank level slightly comes bellow "tank full" sensor? pump will run for few seconds & stops? then again runs & stops...a series conection will not work..need to impliment a logic...

So by adding timer here ...... it make sense...

yousuf...
the comtroller i installed for my mother in law is without a timer, they get water once in a week only and its collected in a tank on the ground & mean time pumped to the top tank too on that particualr day, it always monitor the lower tank when pumps. a timer is absolutely NOT necessary for your task...

when the water is not available just inhibit the pump with logic, NOT with a timer...i will post you t a working circuit when i get back home soon...

 

[4pyros]

Andy... what will happen when the tank level slightly comes bellow "tank full" sensor? pump will run for few seconds & stops? then again runs & stops...a series conection will not work..need to impliment a logic...

For the most part I would consider that a problem with the tank full sensor. Not a problem with the solution that I have proposed.
Naturally the tank full sensor would have to account for this. Usually the flow of water does not stop instantaneously and the tank gets slightly over full preventing false triggering. Just like a toilet.
Andy