WE have a new pope!!!

[Pommie]

I'm thrilled, seems we have a new pope in time to do Easter stuff. I'm going to guess he'll ask (once again) for World Peace and God (in his almighty role) will once again say, in no uncertain terms, not a chance in hell. What a great guy! However, I must admit to a daily interaction with God. I thank him every day for making me an Atheist. Go God. What a Great guy!!

Any comments?

Mike.

Edit, changed it to remove the expletive.

 

[picbits]

Old outdated views and beliefs.

I was hoping for a slightly more liberal and open minded Pope to help the Catholic church into the 20th Century (yes I'm aware that it's now the 21st Century !)

If the Catholic Church doesn't start moving with the times it's going to end up with very few followers

 

[steveB]

We have a new pope.

Why do you say "We" have a new pope? If you are an atheist, then he is not your pope. He is only a pope to catholics.

... and, why do you talk to God? hahaha

Maybe this this not quite on topic, but it is relevant somewhat. I was raised catholic ( but I'm not catholic any more), and we had a relatively young priest (Father John) at our church from 1976 through 1984 who worked under the older priest who was pastor of the church. So, for me, my sisters and neighborhood friends, this guy was a mentor and friend to us through childhood and through our teenage years, since he ran the church youth organization (CYO). He took our confessions and talked to us weekly.

As a side note, he had movie star looks, was tall and had an athletic (even Jesus-like) physique, and all the girls (my sisters and mom included) had a crush on him. In 1984 he left our church and went to another parish and moved up the hierarchy in the church.

So, 2 weeks ago, I'm watching the news and it announces that a man, who was a boy back in the early 1980's, accuses him of sexual assault. Father John immediately admitted his guilt, apologized and was expelled from the church. My sister is very hurt by this news and you can imagine how my friends and family feel, and the news showed how shocked and hurt the people in his current parish are. I'm not one easily bothered personally by things like this, but even for me I feel that many of my good memories of that time are tarnished, and I can't help wonder who the abused person was. Was he a friend of mine, or were their other victims that never came forward? Very disturbing, to say the least. By the way, he can't be charged with a crime because 30 years later is beyond the statue of limitations.

Anyway, I don't want to start a religious discussion, or bash the catholic church because of transgressions of individuals that do not represent the church properly. But, the relevance here is that the Pope is a man, just like any other. He is not perfect, or necessarily even good down to the core.

 

[ronsimpson]

I hope this Pope will put some priests in jail. Moving criminals to another area does not work. I hope the church well.

 

[jpanhalt]

@Pommie and Picbits,

Tell me, when you see a young, expectant mother full of glee, do you stop and tell her of all the problems giving birth can entail? Do you rain on her parade?

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. That is a sizable minority. They have chosen a new leader. Why rain on their parade?

Why is it so important to you that we learn you are an atheist and have disdain for their religion?

John

 

[ElectroNewby]

[MODNOTE]Deleted abuse[/MODNOTE]

 

[dougy83]

Religions should be banned.

I doubt banning religion would be very constructive. It is a human's right to believe whatever they want; attempting to suppress this might be taken to be a bit oppressive by some.

Perhaps if schools taught an unbiased subject on religions (i.e. studies and comparisons of all major world religions, and perhaps the reasoning of non-religious people), it might give rise to positive outcomes, including open-mindedness and the provocation of more critical thinking.

 

[Pommie]

@jpanhalt,

If you do an experiment and don't get the outcome you desire, do you repeat it ad nauseum hoping for a different result. I was merely pointing out that the Easter prayer is something repeated that always has the same outcome - nothing happens. I also pointed out the circular reference type argument of God making me an atheist. It was meant to be slightly amusing and not intended to rain on anyone's parade.

Mike.

 

[jpanhalt]

Re: Experiments

That is something I can control, and of course, I do not repeat them ad nauseum.

There are, as you probably know, several published experiments in reputable journals on the power of prayer in clinical settings. None has shown a positive result in clinical outcome. That does not mean that prayer and other measures aimed at providing emotional support are worthless. Clearly, such measures, including prayer, have helped people endure hardships that otherwise would seem unbearable. (Example, Sandy Hook Elementary School)

As for world peace, none of us can control that. Those who want to take over and subjugate in the name of promoting peace always end up doing more killing and destruction than what existed before. In that regard, another religion in particular comes to mind in the modern era.

Nevertheless, I would not criticize any person for hoping for peace. From what I have read, Francis I is a humble and good person. He did not ask the others to pray with him. He asked them to pray for him. Maybe he will bring people together.

John

 

[throbscottle]

I think everyone should have some sort of religion - even if it doesn't involve deities. There is no underestimating the power of belief. Personally I'm a polytheistic agnostic animist, sort of. It's just a shame people take their beliefs so seriously they are willing to shed blood over them.

 

[scubadog]

I have a beleif.

I beleive that too many wars are started in the name of religion.
I beleive that too many people are supressed for theor lofe choices due to religion.
I beleive that a lot of religions have based their beleifs on things that have now been
totaly disproved by science ( i didnt see any mnetion of dinosours in the bible)
I beleive that almost every religion at some point trys to impose there beleifs on
people......get lost and get off my property!!!
I beleive in one thing.......science!!

 

[JimB]

I believe that religion was, and still is in many places, a tool used by an "elite minority" to subjugate and control the masses.

JimB

 

[picbits]

@Pommie and Picbits,

Tell me, when you see a young, expectant mother full of glee, do you stop and tell her of all the problems giving birth can entail? Do you rain on her parade?

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. That is a sizable minority. They have chosen a new leader. Why rain on their parade?

Why is it so important to you that we learn you are an atheist and have disdain for their religion?

John

I am a Catholic,

I feel let down by certain people within the church due to some of the rather outdated beliefs.
I feel let down by the priests who have abused children (and adults) in the past.
I feel let down by one of our local priests for the way he has treated some of my family

I haven't had any personal issues with any of the priests I've known, they have been fantastic people but I do feel that the church needs to move forward a little. I was in Rome and visited the Vatican just before the Pope before last died - sad times.

In no way have I attempted to rain on anyones parade. Having read through previous sermons and interviews with the new Pope, I feel he may not be the right person to bring the Church forward. That is my personal opinion obviously. I hope I'm proved wrong.

*edit - and I must say, the 1.2 billion Catholics have not chosen their new Pope - it wasn't a democratic election but decided by a small group inside the Church.

 

[picbits]

I will also say that I believe that there is a God.

I also unreservedly accept other peoples religions and faiths. I believe in my own God but what's not to say that the God I believe in isn't also the Buddah or Allah that someone else believes in. It's good to have a faith of some kind. I won't have my faith changed and I won't try and change anyone elses.

 

[hexreader]

I wonder what Jesus would have thought of it all?

 

[Mr RB]

I believe Jesus was in the habit of beating up on people in the church for putting tradition (and moneymaking!) first and morality second. I agree with his stance.

I would like to see the Vatican return the wealth stolen from numerous countries, and stolen from the Templars in exchange for their absolution from heresy (the Templar wealth that went missing was reported to be greater that the entire wealth of England). Once the Vatican returns those many billions of dollars, spent helping the people's wronged then they would more credibility than they have now; sitting on mountains of gold, and STILL passing the plate around in church expecting poor people to put their coins in it...

 

[MrAl]

Hi there,

I dont agree with everything in the Catholic Church, but they do a lot for the impoverished of the world and that say's a lot i think. If they are willing to put out for others then it's very hard do knock them.

But by not agreeing with everything in particular a main issue i think is priests and marriage. They seem to be divided on this and it doesnt make sense to me. On the one hand, they will let men that come from other religions that are already married enter into the priesthood, yet at the same time they wont let priests that were not yet married get married after becoming a priest. That i think is one of the worst things about their doctrine and it really believe it should be changed. It has caused a lot of abuse that we know of, so imagine what happened in the past that we dont know about. Let them marry like many other religions

 

[dougy83]

I dont agree with everything in the Catholic Church, but they do a lot for the impoverished of the world and that say's a lot i think. If they are willing to put out for others then it's very hard do knock them.

They also are responsible for a lot of suffering. Child sexual abuse aside, they are responsible, in a large part, for the lack of use of contraceptives in these impoverished nations, or the horrendous views towards certain groups.

Unprotected sexual contact is the leading transmission medium for HIV/AIDS - the church states that contraception is a grievous sin. Abstinence is not a realistic solution.

Not surprisingly, unprotected sexual contact is also the leading cause of pregnancy, which doesn't help when you're struggling to support an already starving family. Abstinence is not a realistic solution.

Religious persons spread the word to the most susceptible people on the planet. They are recruiting suffering to bolster their image of being supportive of the suffering.

“a number of experts on the Vatican say that the new pope will not support proselytism in traditionally Orthodox coutries but will turn his primary attention to the growth of the Catholic church in the developing countries of Latin America, Africa, and Asia.”

An article on the subject (one of many):
https://www.consultancyafrica.com/i...atid=61:hiv-aids-discussion-papers&Itemid=268

 

[jpanhalt]

They also are responsible for a lot of suffering. Child sexual abuse aside, they are responsible, in a large part, for the lack of use of contraceptives in these impoverished nations, or the horrendous views towards certain groups.

To which nations are you referring? Let's get some data. Aren't many of the nations that fit that category of impoverished Muslim, and the open practice of Catholicism is prohibited in them?

Toward which groups does the Catholic church hold "horrendous" views?

Unprotected sexual contact is the leading transmission medium for HIV/AIDS - the church states that contraception is a grievous sin. Abstinence is not a realistic solution.

Aren't AIDS/HIV rampant in predominantly Muslim nations of Africa? Why do you think those problems are linked to Catholicism?

Religious persons spread the word to the most susceptible people on the planet. They are recruiting suffering to bolster their image of being supportive of the suffering.

This thread was about election of a new Pope. Does the above comment refer to all religions or just Catholicism. How is that related to election of Francis I? How do you identify a person who is more "susceptible" to religion from one who is less susceptible?

That last sentence is a bit confusing. Are you suggesting that by offering medical aid the various Christian missions in Africa are creating more suffering? How about the nonsectarian missions, are they also promoting suffering? What is your solution to AIDS and HIV infection is Africa? How effective have nonsectarian efforts been at curbing the incidence in comparison to non-Catholic and Catholic efforts?

On the other hand, if you truly are asserting that the Catholic church is intentionally inflecting damage so it can appear to the benevolent by offering aid, you are way off base. It is irresponsible to make such a charge without evidence.

John

 

[dougy83]

>>> Toward which groups does the Catholic church hold "horrendous" views?
I was referring to homosexuals; note that I said that the church is responsible for the views, not that it necessarily holds them.
"Kill the gays bill" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill
Allegedly inspired by visiting christians during their two-day conference/workshop. If you watch the results of the Ugandan Pastor Dr Martin Ssempa's conference on - and research into - this topic, you will see the frenzied hysteria of those who attended, apparently taking all on board, perhaps due to the fact the the speaker was a Pastor of the church - in a position of power, both societially and religiously; perhaps also due to the lack of skepticism, critical thinking of the culture. I believe this is documented in "Missionaries of Hate - Vanguard".

Again, the official church standing in regards to same-sex attracted people is abstinence.

>>> To which nations are you referring? Let's get some data. Aren't many of the nations that fit that category of impoverished Muslim and the open practice of Catholicism is prohibited in them?
**broken link removed**
"More than two-thirds of Catholics live in the developing world, and population projections clearly indicate that proportion will grow to three-fourths in the next four decades"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty
https://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_rel-religion-religions
These are taken directly from the top of the sorted wikipedia table, religion denominations taken from the second link

Country    <PovertyLine  Religion prevalence
Haiti        77%        Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16%
Equ. Guinea    77%        nominally Christian and predominantly Roman Catholic
zimbabwe    72%        christian 25, christian mix 50%, Islam <1%
Congo        71%        Roman Catholic 50%, Protestant 20%, Muslim 10%
Swaziland    69%        Roman Catholic 20%, Islam 10%
Eritrea        69%        Muslim, Coptic Christian, Roman Catholic, Protestant???
Madagascar    69%        Christian 41%, Muslim 7%
Burundi        67%        Christian 67% (Roman Catholic 62%, Protestant 5%)

>>> Aren't AIDS/HIV rampant in predominantly Muslim nations of Africa? Why do you think those problems are linked to Catholicism?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_birth_control
Only Roman Catholics are explicit in regards to the non-use of protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate
https://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_rel-religion-religions
Again, these are taken directly from the top of the sorted wikipedia table, religion denominations taken from the second link

Swaziland     26.1% infected, Roman Catholic 20%, Islam 10%
Botswana    23.9% infected, christian 72%
Lesotho        23.2% infected, christian 80%
Sth Africa    17.8% infected, christian 68%, Islam 2%
Namibia        15.3% infected, christian 80-90%
Zimbabwe    15.3% infected, christian 25, christian mix 50%, Islam <1%

HIV/AIDS obviously isn't caused by caused by Catholics or god (though some will insist it's the work of the devil). What the Catholic church does spread however, is the teachings of irresponsible (or unworkable/impractical) practices and untruths. It is these practices (which are only followed in part), that will be spreading disease. These practises can of course be due to instructions from other religions, superstitions, social expectation, laziness, negligence, etc.

>> This thread was about election of a new Pope. Does the above comment refer to all religions or just Catholicism. How is that related to election of Francis I?
A pope that is intent on returning to the gospel roots doesn't seem to be much of a way forward in terms of practical teaching.

>> How do you identify a person who is more "susceptible" to religion from one who is less susceptible?
I said people, and I'm referring to people of particular upbringings, backgrounds, social values/stigmas/dogmas and also of note is the availability of unbiased education. It's undoubtedly easier to fool someone of limited knowledge through various acts of charlatanry than an educated person. It's also easier to fleece someone that is in a poor situation and that is wanting to believe that you have the answer.

>>> That last sentence is a bit confusing. Are you suggesting that by offering medical aid the various Christian missions in Africa are creating more suffering? How about the nonsectarian missions, are they also promoting suffering? What is your solution to AIDS and HIV infection is Africa? How effective have nonsectarian efforts been at curbing the incidence in comparison to non-Catholic and Catholic missions?
Offering aid is great. Offering aid with religious strings attached will get them through today, but does not necessarily help in the long run.

No, I am not suggesting that medical aid is creating suffering. There is more aid from religious sources than from non-religious. This is wonderful. I am not suggesting that providing food, water, shelter or unbiased education and empowerment is creating suffering.

There is a difference between religious-backed aid (albeit secularly delivered) and a missionary group (or the pope himself) providing impractical teachings, and in some cases detrimental and hateful information.

>>> On the other hand, if you truly are asserting that the Catholic church is intentionally inflecting damage so it can appear to the benevolent by offering aid, you are way off base. It is irresponsible to make such a charge without evidence.
I believe the church is not acting responsibly and realistically. It is one thing to postulate and philosophise about what is the righteous and good manner in which one must aspire to conduct oneself, but in reality this may not be workable in many (if any) societies; the church have shown this first-hand. Abstaining from crustaceans, being sure not to write two or more letters on Shabbat, or growing a beard do not make for a better person, nor do they help the fact that my neighbours are killing each other with machettes or that my family is starving.

Having god interfere with non-religious medical procedures is also not practical. **broken link removed**