# Turbo electrolys (Hydrogen)

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#### Charlie123

##### New Member
Hi, I need some informations regarding a new project that I would like to start. I would like to connect a stun gun. cct to a 12 V car battery powered by a Bedini generator or a solar panel to create Hydrogen.

First, I would like to know what is really a Bedini generator, is this really works ? or this is only a hoax ? As per my research seems to be feasable but I don't have the technical skill to understand the entire system.

Tks Charlie

##### Banned
Hoax per usual. It would be more efficient to store the energy from a solar cell in a battery and use it later than it would be to generate hydrogen and do something with it later, not to mention that hydrogen is EXTREMELY dangerous to handle with any volume.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
Actually the dangers of hydrogen gas are a bigger myth than many of the alternative energy devices it commonly related too!

I had to do a load of studying,tests and hands on training to get my cryogenic liquids and gases certification.
Hydrogen is actually very safe. It dissipates extremely rapidly! If you were to dump a 500 gallon container of liquid hydrogen on the ground, In less than 3 minutes you could throw a match at that spot and have nothing happen!
Plus as the lightest of all gases, it rises in the atmosphere at nearly 40 mph assuming the turbulence from its own rising does not dissipate it first! Its upward travel rate is even faster than air bubbles rising in a column of water!

Trying to keep air and hydrogen mixed is like trying to keep air and water mixed. Every chance it gets it tries to rise and float away!
Its hard to actually produce a natural combustion situation with it being able to dissipate so extremely fast!
Like air in water it will dissipate or get absorbed into the surrounding area but at a very low concentration. The majority of it tries to rise until it gets mixed with the air its in.
The actual effort it does take to keep it mixed with a contained air source makes it very hard to keep its air to fuel combustion ratios uniform. It keeps wanting to rise to the top of the container and that tends to disrupt the mix ratios.
If you were to have a flammable gas leak in a building hydrogen is actually one or the safest ones to have!
Being so light it will seep through the tiniest opening in a container or structure and vent itself out!

As far as common dangerous gasses Acetylene, propane and natural gas are many many times more dangerous!
Thats why the put the scenting agents in them! SO you can be aware if there is a buildup!

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
How come every one of those videos on the INTERNET is done in low resolution and they also have all of those miscellaneous wires running every where? Many off the frame of the camera view?

If you want me to believe it really works just build it on a Plexiglas sheet hanging from the ceiling with all of the meters and control circuits in the open! That way everyone can actually see them! And use regular old fashioned incandescent light bulbs for the actual loads.

Also video it running on a real time scale with that load! like maybe a few hours?
If It has no visible batteries or power cords coming in from off camera and can still keep a half dozen 100 watt bulbs lit for several hours then I will believe!

Until them I will still be very skeptical!

#### Charlie123

##### New Member
Hi tcmtech, (tks for everyone)

I appreciated your reply, I want to stored my hydrogen within a tank surounded by water so if something exploded, I want the water to absorbe any explosion, and of course, I want to use a very small tank or a weak countainer. (I guess this solution will be good enough).

Do you have any link or information on how many watts, I will need to create let say, 1 or 2 liters (gas) of Hydrogen per minute for experimentation. I will need this Hydrogen to react with others chemicals elements to purify waste water for a safer environment to avoid our animals to die or being sick from this waste water, as we know the actual treatement are not 100 % efficient, only up to 70 to 90 % depending of the weather and toxicité. Yes, I believe I can make a difference

As per you probably know, a stun g. cicuit can delivered up to 50 000 volts or even more depending of the structure of course, so this 50 000 volts with a car battery of several amps can do the work ? than I'm wondering what will be the solar panel needed hmmm good question. Let me know your comments.

Brgds Charlie

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
I cant find my reference books that have the hydrogen related conversion info.
(I cleaned house some and now I cant find anything!)
I do recall that a KG of hydrogen gas takes something like 26 KWH of electricity to produce. But without my reference material I dont recall how many liters that actually equates to at standard temperature and pressure. But its allot!

If your going to be needing any quantity of hydrogen gas I hope you live in the United states! Its legal to buy it at any big welding supply store.
You just have fill out the safety paper work and thats about all.

I have a T size tank that costs me $26 a year for the lease and about$22 to get it refilled. I think it holds something like 280 Cubic Feet at around 3000 PSI.
You will need a high pressure regulator to bring it down to a normal working pressure first.
There is no way I can make my own yet at the volume that this tank holds and still have the high purity too! For baseline reference testing you cant beat it!

As far as making hydrogen Or HHO gas the information on the web is more often than not grossly wrong!
I have worked on it personally and you do not need high voltage ever! You do need high current though. A simple electrolysis cell takes around two volts.
There are many types of electrode materials that work but I have found to work good and use is called type 403 stainless steel and it works super with sodium hydroxide and water as the electrolyte.
Sodium hydroxide (Na-OH) is commonly sold as Red Devil Drain Cleaner. It is 100% sodium hydroxide in crystal form. Very cheap too!

A good secret to getting great gas production is to actually scuff up the Electrode surfaces with very course sand paper and then clean them with alcohol. And try to keep the electrode plates about 1/8 of an inch apart.

The Na-OH electrolyte should be mixed to its saturation point. That is you keep adding it to distilled water until it will no longer dissolve.
Being Na-OH is a solid at normal temperatures it will stay in the electrolyte and only the water gets turned into HHO gas. All you ever need to do is add more water to your system.

Putting the electrolysis cells in series will also allow you to use normal voltages to do the HHO production. So you wont need a 2 volt 1000 amp power source to do it. A stack of cells can run at 20 amps and 100 volts and still give you the same gas volume outputs.

And above all, use saftey to an obsessive level. You are working with water and electricity along with chemicals that eat flesh rather well and you are making an explosive mixture of gasses!
You have electrocution, explosion and chemical burns all working together to try and kill you!

##### Banned
Tcm... The hydrogen will indeed rise up within 3 minutes to clear the area of explodeable gasses... Within that boundary, a single spark will cause a conflagration the likes of which movie producers never imagine. Mixed with oxygen even briefly shockwaves or compression are all that is needed to induce an explosion.

No car in the history of combustion engines has ever gone up like they do in the movies. The first hydrogen fuel car that results in a fire ball caught on camera will be the end virtually instantly from public fear if not rational reason for hydogen as a power source.

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
True. But still by practical application it is still far safer than many of the current fuel we use today!
Dump 500 gallons of gasoline on the ground and you have to worry about a spark for days!

And actually it would be rather hard to get a 500 gallon tank of hydrogen to spill. they are very very well built! You wreck a hydrogen powered vehical with a certified high pressure fuel tank and I will garantee the tank full of hydrogen will be the last solid piece intact!

Ever seen the myth busters episode where they try to shot a hole in a propane tank? It took a fair sized rifle to do it! And propane tanks are only rated at around 325 PSI venting pressure. The high pressure tanks are typically 3500 PSI or more at actual venting.

In my certification safety classea for work I had to watch several videos of the standard high pressure cylinders being placed in actual crash and abusive conditions. (It helps make new employees feel more confident and safer while handling and working around the high pressure tanks)
Its why I am rather on the less concerned side when it comes to working around it. I still respect it but I dont fear every interaction with it.

A truck load of high pressure cylinders (at working Pressures) was hit by a train on one video. Two vented slightly out of something like 50 units. The rest survived and most were still certified as safe to use! The truck however looked like it went through a hammer mill shredder!

And being hydrogen has a nearly clear flame, I would like to see a car burn up too! In normal daylight It would just look like The car was mysteriously melting!

I will hook up my hydrogen tank to my torch's and take some pictures of actual hydrogen flames in the next day or so.

If you do want to hear a wicked back fire, run an engine on hydrogen and kill the ignition for a second. Wow! That is like a high powered rifle shot!

I am not trying to make hydrogen sound like its completely harmless by any means. I am just trying to get more people to realize that it is actually a fair amount safer that what we commonly use every day!

Lack of familiarity and proper knowledge is what most of the hydrogen horror myths are really about.

#### Charlie123

##### New Member
Hi tcmtech,

Yes, I saw a lot of experiences on the net showing people with hydrogen on the net, this is clearly not a toy to play with even if we considered this less dangerous than other chemicals, of course we need just to follow the rules.

Hmmm, seems that electrolysis with stun gun system is maybe to demanding on energy to provide the right amperage. What about the Stanley Meyers electrolysis? It seems that this engineer have created a way to produce Hydrogen with 1 to 2 amps see this vid, apparently this electosys is 300% efficient ( I 'm sceptical) !!! :

YouTube - Original Meyer Water Fuel Cell c.1990

From you point of view, do you think that this device is efficient enough to create very cheap Hydrogen ? (This technology is using PWM) instead of regular courant.

Do you have any idea where I can find a step by step (well explained)schematics to create one of this device ? Let me know once you have some time for me, Tks Charlie ...

##### Banned
You can't beat 100% efficiency, in the real world you're not likely to beat 95% If they got more hydrogen out than about 90% efficiency it was from a chemical reaction in the solution itself. The cheap hydrogen idea is moot, it simply can NOT happen. You HAVE To use energy to create it, chemical or electrical. Hydrogen is nothing more than a chemical battery. Thing is advancements in battery technology in the last few years is getting REALLY close to beating Hydrogen as a practical energy storage solution.

#### tcmtech

##### Banned
I agree with Sceadwian entirely on that part too. A pure electrically powered separation of hydrogen and oxygen from water has a well known and proven top limit.

For cheap, simple, effective and surprisingly reliable electrolysis the stainless steel and NA-OH works. There are more exotic chemical electrolytes and far more expensive platinum based electrode materials out here that will gain you a few more percent.
But the stainless steel and NA-OH setup works with either polarity and it will take having higher voltages pushed through without much fuss. I have ran a test cell off my welder with just two electrodes and 32 volts at nearly 100 amps.
It really boils a load of gas off! But the electrolyte does heat up if not being constantly cooled and at a certain temperature you will make far more steam than usable gas.

#### unclejed613

##### Well-Known Member
you don't need hundreds of kV to electrolyze water efficiently. you need large surface area electrodes and lots of current, and i think tcmtech is right, an efficient electrolyte helps a lot, as well as electrodes that don't dissolve (stainless is the cheapest). i've been in the electronics field for over 35 years, and i've seen and analyzed just about every "free energy" scheme you can think of. as a teenager i built a few myself (like the one with 2 motors, a huge flywheel and a large bank of capacitors....)

when you hear about "free energy" (usually closely related to perpetual motion) remember these 3 rules:

1. there's no such thing as a free lunch
2. you always drop some crumbs while eating
3. ants always take away the crumbs

that's the laws of thermodynamics in a "nutshell"

the other hallmarks of "free energy" are the use of "secret processes" that need lots of money to develop, or some exotic material that's very expensive (closely related in atomic structure to Unobtainium), or use some exotic type of energy that requires the use of a specific crystal structure or "special laws of physics" to collect that energy.

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##### Banned
hehe I like that description for thermodynamic laws uncle.

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