Thoughts On USB C and the PD Standard Noncompliance

[MrAl]

?? I would!

If it's sold by a reputable UK seller, it will work as stated.

Hi,

Well I started to look at worst case as we talked about this.
That led me to find a way to test first.

 

[MrAl]

I was a skeptic the first time I tried a PD charger. Until I played around with it and figured out the output possibilities. It performed exactly as it was expected to do, and nothing was harmed in the process.

Testing a PD power supply would be simple. Get a PD trigger with selectable voltage selection as shown in the picture and hook up a volt meter to the output.

Extending this a bit further, you could add an in-line USB volt/power meter and an adjustable load to characterize voltage vs load.

I suggest a PD trigger similar to this one. Some types that are scarely bigger than the USB C connector use solder jumpers to set the voltage. A microscope and steady hand is required to make changes on those.

If you feel the need to tell me this test wouldn't be legitimate, please refrain from doing so.

View attachment 142510

Hello again,


Your replies always include some rude remark. You should refrain from doing that.
It's hard to take someone seriously when they act as unprofessional as that.

 

[For The Popcorn]

My replies also include factual information, which some people will appreciate.

 

[MrAl]

My replies also include factual information, which some people will appreciate.

Thanks for your replies.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

First, nearly every device manufacturer's documentation says to use the charger that comes with the device and some babble that use of other chargers may void the warrantee. Some say to use chargers from (e.g. Authorized Apple Licensees - a.k.a. Anker brand for an iPad USB Type-C charger).

The "USB 3.0 Promotor Group" designed, copyrighted and patented the design of the USB Type-C connector and claimed to grant licenses to anyone who uses the connector per the electrical specification. They do not say they do not warrant or assure fitness of use for any and all devices that use the connector - it is simply manufactured without proper license to the patent of the Promotor Group. They say, without saying in their documentation - buyer beware.

If you try to take action against anyone for manufacturing a USB Type-C connector with a basic 12v source because the charger damaged your phone, you'll likely lose because you didn't follow the basic recommendation of the phone manufacturer - only use the charger that came with your phone (or similar phrases).

The only time you'd be able to sue about a charger is if some company said, "this charger works with any phone" or "...works with your phone". The only problems I've seen, however, is someone using a 12v USB Type-C connector from a security camera to charge his bicycle GPS and the bicycle GPS died instantly. No evidence said, "You can use the security system power supply for any USB Type-C device". Not to mention, the security system was some no-name brand that was probably spying on his house rather than securing anything.

Good luck and buyer beware - and don't be lazy or stupid when handling expensive equipment.

https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf#page31

 

[MrAl]

First, nearly every device manufacturer's documentation says to use the charger that comes with the device and some babble that use of other chargers may void the warrantee. Some say to use chargers from (e.g. Authorized Apple Licensees - a.k.a. Anker brand for an iPad USB Type-C charger).

The "USB 3.0 Promotor Group" designed, copyrighted and patented the design of the USB Type-C connector and claimed to grant licenses to anyone who uses the connector per the electrical specification. They do not say they do not warrant or assure fitness of use for any and all devices that use the connector - it is simply manufactured without proper license to the patent of the Promotor Group. They say, without saying in their documentation - buyer beware.

If you try to take action against anyone for manufacturing a USB Type-C connector with a basic 12v source because the charger damaged your phone, you'll likely lose because you didn't follow the basic recommendation of the phone manufacturer - only use the charger that came with your phone (or similar phrases).

The only time you'd be able to sue about a charger is if some company said, "this charger works with any phone" or "...works with your phone". The only problems I've seen, however, is someone using a 12v USB Type-C connector from a security camera to charge his bicycle GPS and the bicycle GPS died instantly. No evidence said, "You can use the security system power supply for any USB Type-C device". Not to mention, the security system was some no-name brand that was probably spying on his house rather than securing anything.

Good luck and buyer beware - and don't be lazy or stupid when handling expensive equipment.

https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf#page31

Hi there,

That's the idea I have been trying to get across to other readers, but you've articulated it much better than I did so I have to thank you for that.

I came across these issues not because I just felt like talking about it, which is interesting in itself though, but because through experience I found myself plugging a $15 wall adapter (or other $10 adapter) into some rather expensive equipment. I had to wonder, should I really be doing this. I am trusting a low-cost device to work perfectly when it could be capable of blowing out my nice equipment that can cost 50 times as much. If it blows out, as they say, you can't come back from that.

This also happened a long time ago when I purchased a regular 5v car adapter (12v cigar plug to 5v output) to charge the phone. I decided not to use it until I examined the circuit inside.

 

[For The Popcorn]

First, nearly every device manufacturer's documentation says to use the charger that comes with the device and some babble that use of other chargers may void the warrantee.

This is somewhat out of date. High-end phones do not ship with a charger anymore. This is true for iPhone 12 and the Samsung Galaxy Note 20 to name a couple. Many other USB devices are not shipped with power supplies.

USB C PD chargers have become so ubiquitous that phone manufacturers accept the fact that many people already have suitable chargers at hand and no longer include the dire warnings about using other chargers.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

This is somewhat out of date. High-end phones do not ship with a charger anymore. This is true for iPhone 12 and the Samsung Galaxy Note 20 to name a couple. Many other USB devices are not shipped with power supplies.

USB C PD chargers have become so ubiquitous that phone manufacturers accept the fact that many people already have suitable chargers at hand and no longer include the dire warnings about using other chargers.

No, you're wrong. The high-end phones don't ship with chargers but Apple and Samsung still say you should use their charger with xxx minimum specifications or a, as I said above, in the case of Apple, you can use the MFi licensee checker website, that is approved by Apple for use with Apple devices. Read the fine print in your phone instructions. Don't have them? Go figure.

MFi Licensee App

mfi.apple.com

 

[rjenkinsgb]

only use the charger that came with your phone (or similar phrases).

Wrong.

Even from Apple, their web site re. charging:

You can also charge iPhone with “Made for iPhone” or other third-party cables and power adapters that are compliant with USB 2.0 or later and with applicable country regulations and international and regional safety standards.

Edit; also UK law re. faulty (non compliant) things causing damage:

"If an item causes damage to your property through no fault of your own, you may have a legal right to claim compensation (also known as claiming 'damages')."

 

[For The Popcorn]

As long as you're not buying your chargers from this guy, you'll be fine.

 

[rjenkinsgb]

Note there are many massive differences between UK / EU consumer law and (from what I can see of it) US consumer law.

One specific and relevant part:

In the UK, advertisers or sellers have a legal obligation to show items comply with their documented or advertised claims, as well as statute regulations regarding safety and compatibility etc.

In the USA, it appears sellers can claim anything and it's down to buyers to prove their claims false?

 

[ZipZapOuch]

So, if the manufacturer makes a 12v ac adapter, calls it a 12v AC adapter and puts a USB-C connector on it, and you plug it into your phone, I cannot imagine any body winning a lawsuit based on the fact that you thought the connector fit your phone so you used it. Sorry - it functioned as it was labelled - in the US or the
UK. 12v.

 

[For The Popcorn]

And I have not suggested that.

If a charger claims to be USB C PD, and it's marked for 5 volts and one or more PD voltages, and it supplied 12 volts without negotiation, you would have a case.

I have only heard of two 12 volt --> USB C connector supplies (one of which did blow up a device) but one I know was clearly marked 12 volts and didn't claim to be a PD charger. I don't know how MrAl 's 12 volt only charger is marked since he's never posted a picture of it.

Improper application of USB C connectors is an entirely separate issue from USB C PD, and this thread is largely misdirected.

 

[ZipZapOuch]

Improper application of USB C connectors is an entirely separate issue from USB C PD, and this thread is largely misdirected.

From the title of this thread, and the first paragraph of the first post, I assumed the thread was exactly about improper use of USB Type-C connectors.

 

[eriktrue]

If a charger claims to be USB C PD, and it's marked for 5 volts and one or more PD voltages, and it supplied 12 volts without negotiation, you would have a case.

I have only heard of two 12 volt --> USB C connector supplies (one of which did blow up a device) but one I know was clearly marked 12 volts and didn't claim to be a PD charger. I don't know how @MrAl 's 12 volt only charger is marked since he's never posted a picture of it.

This is because USB C PD uses a negotiation protocol to determine how much voltage and current a port can safely carry.

 

[For The Popcorn]

This is because USB C PD uses a negotiation protocol to determine how much voltage and current a port can safely carry

Yes, thank you. That point has been made several times in this thread already.

 

[MrAl]

Hello again,

I don't think one or two model phones should dictate anything. I have two phones both say to use the charger that came with them. Maybe this is going out of vogue, but some phones may still require this note. Thus, I do not think bringing certain phones into the discussion creates a good talking point.

However, I do think the idea about a charger being marked as PD compliant is a relatively good point. If the charger is marked as PD compliant then you should expect it to act as such. If it does not however, you still have a problem.

So, let's be practical now. If you buy a $2000 phone, maybe you will be inclined to TRY to sue (note "TRY" because not all lawsuits end in a win or even partial win), but you will first have to find a lawyer willing to take the case and hopefully sue not only for the cost of the phone but also for the various fees. That could work with a $2000 phone I guess, but what about a $50 or even $100 phone. Most lawyers would probably laugh about that.

What I realized in this thread is the best way is to test a new charger that comes into your possession. That way you avoid a LOT of headaches involving lawsuits and incidental fees and whatnot. Hopefully it never goes bad.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Pointless argumentative thread locked - moderator.