Rookie needs solar, battery, laptop and video charging advice for unsuported biketrip

[Nomadinexile]

*Edit* My needs have now changed. I am currently seeking 3 charges for 3 AA's and 3 charges for 1 Nbl4 760mah 3.2 volt.
If I can support this off an 100Ah LifePo4, I think I have it locked down. But can I? Thanks everyone! ryan

Hello everyone. Sorry if this post isn't within the scope of this site. I have no idea where to go, as my needs are not something they train people for at Electronics stores, and all I am getting everywhere is blank stares.

I am taking a self-supported bike trip from Austin, TX to Death Valley, CA to take pictures and video of arachnids, mostly scorpions. I am planning on releasing on photo's, video's, and information gained for free online. This is not a commercial trip. It's a journey of love for our natural world, and my attempt to share it.

I have a long framed bicycle from Kona, called the Ute. It has a large platform similar in size to 3 skateboards end to end, on the back to put a solar panel on. I need to buy a laptop or net book, and a video recorder, and the solar stuff, for around $1000. I plan on filming for 2-3 hours a day. I want to take 100-200 digital 6mp photos a day. And I also have to be able to charge 3AA batteries every day for my black light flashlight which makes their exoskeleton glow at night. I need to have approximately 1 hour of computer time a night as well to work on blogs, upload vid/pics off of memory, and record any important observations I see as well. I plan on having access to AC outlets once a week, or once every two weeks, depending on where I am at. I need the computer to be able to email, go to websites, use word, and upload/download photos and video. The only video editing I plan on doing is taking time off the front or end of footage. I don't need any special software. Just able to view and edit length.
I don't need a disk drive either I don't think.

These are some of the problems I am running into:
1. Solar chargers advertised as "laptop chargers" are either A. Too expensive B. They are underpowered, and will
only work with certain brands/batteries, and still take a long time, or the charge isn't strong enough to even be
noticed by the computer, let alone charge it.
2. I don't know enough about electricity and electronics, and so I'm not really sure how much energy I even need.
3. Even if I get something that is capable of charging the computer in a reasonable time, I still have to buy converters and special adapters to charge AA batteries and video recorder as well. And again, will it have the juice?

I have a million things and ideas spinning through my mind right now, and I'm pretty good and lost about this. However, I do think I found a couple of options that I just might be able to pull off, and I am wondering if I am barking up the right tree here. Can you help me figure it out?

Option1: Regular cheap microsoft based laptop or net book, sony handy cam type video recorder, and this:
Xantrex Technology Inc. - Mobile Office - XPower Powerpack Solar - Product Information

Questions: That solar panel is small. Most of the energy for this device will come from charging in wall outlets once a week or so right? Would this device store enough for my needs for One week if it gets full sun all day? Two?

Option2:Linux Ubunto based computer that runs 4 hours off 8AA's. And video recorder that needs 2AA's. **broken link removed**
**broken link removed**
And I can get two of those military grade folding chargers that charge 4 AA's in 7-8 hours. That should be close.

Any help is appreciated. Any advice. I am completely lost and need it. If this is the wrong place for this, any ideas on where to go? Thanks, sincerely, Ryan Nomadinexile@hushmail.com

 

[Oznog]

I'm in Austin, Tx and might be able to help. I can make a blacklight flashlight that will put any 3AA light to shame.

Hmm, it MIGHT be more practical to carry extra batteries. I know that's a lot of load, but there's just physical limitations here. You've already noticed that a solar panel will be large in both size and weight, and any charging solution will be a similar situation. So it could come down to, will it be more than 7 days worth of batteries? Well, that's a complicated question. The computer's gonna be your big power hog there. But all this varies greatly depending on what equipment you have too. That Linux computer may be really helpful there, but it'll depend on whether it's powerful enough to do your job too.

Li-ion batts are the highest storage capacity in terms of weight and volume, BTW.

There are a LOT of digital video recorders out there, with varying levels of performance. I wouldn't totally recommend that Flip UltraHD for you though, because you can't change the memory card in it. If you fill it up, you need a way to dump its 8 gigs onto a computer or it's done. Plus, it's unlikely, but if you break the camera then you may be unable to access the video you stored on it. If, like most others, it used a flash CARD, then you just buy a bunch of cards beforehand. Flash cards are now quite cheap. Also handy if hopefully the camera and video cam use the same type of card so you don't end up low on one type with extra of another type.

Any chance you'll be camped near someone with a car, so you could charge off their batt?

 

[Nomadinexile]

Thanks for your reply! So I have received more info and ideas since my last post. So I am going to include all of this in my reply to you.

1. Remember, between Austin and Tucson, there aren't going to be a whole lot of people embracing everyone's differences. My guess is, that every other little town I stop in, there will be someone watching their watch and glaring at me waiting for me to get out of their town. Regardless of the fact I am a libertarian, I will be seen as a liberal who's partly responsible for destroying America. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I've done this kind of thing before. Lot's of small town folk are nice as could be. Lot's of them are not. My point here is this though,.... I'm not going to have a lot of money to sit around places charging. And I really don't want to spend a whole lot of time arguing city/country this trip. I don't want to be locked into chasing juice around instead of scorpions! Plus, there could be week or two without AC power. And I couldn't afford all the batteries I would have to buy to do that anyway. Think about it, 14 laptop batteries! I certainly couldn't afford the laptop after that!

2. Charging to lithium ion would be great, except for the fact that they require full sun and Oriented solar panel to begin charging at all. Which would be fine, if I could double up everything, and then pull over for 6 hours a day.
But I can't. Between about 9am-9pm, my job is to ride the bike. Maybe stop for a few pictures here and there. But I want to ride 12 hours a day usually. There will be exceptions. But they will be few and far between. So this has to charge, while I am riding, and not have to be full sun. So that leaves lead acid batteries. The best setup I can see so far is something like this:

**broken link removed**

There are different sizes of solar panels and batteries for these combo's. I will be getting either the 12w or 24w, and the battery I get depends on what I need. Oh, and here is my bike for reference. It's a kona ute long tail. There will be two of those saddle bags to carry everything I have. The platform on back, is approximately 30"x8" wide. But with full saddle bags, the width will be at least 12 inches. My plan is to put at least 6 gallons of water and the battery on the platform. On top of the platform will be the solar panel. Here's a pic of the bike:

**broken link removed**

So now, unless some magical Fuel Cell appears on the market asap, I'm pretty well set on the type of setup I need.
Now my question turns to this:

How much juice do I need the battery to store, to fully recharge a 3 cell lithium Ion Computer battery, and a cannon point and shoot, and 6 aa batteries, 3aaa batteries, a gps, and a cell phone, every two days. I have a couple of set-ups to choose from. Although the larger one I am going to post is really going to put me in a world of hurt if I need it. But I have to have juice. I have to be able to communicate.

So here are a couple of options:
**broken link removed**
Solar Laptop Charger & Portable Power Kit 300 Watt - 25 Watt Solar Panel
Earthtech Products Solar Laptop Charger & Portable Power Kit 400 Watt

And from duracell300:
AC output power (max. continuous) 240 W
AC output power (peak) 300 W
AC output surge capacity (peak) 480 W
AC output voltage (nominal) 120 V
AC output frequency 60 Hz
AC output waveform Modified sine wave
Inverter no-load current < 0.20 amps (battery drain with no load on inverter)
Inverter low-battery alarm 11.0 V
Inverter low-battery shutdown 10.5 V
Part number 852-0307
Unit dimensions (L x W x H) 12.5 x 9.25 x 8” (31.8 x 23.5 x 20.3 cm)
Unit weight 14.3 lb (6.5 kg)
Warranty Six months
Operating temperature 32oF to 104oF (0oC to 40oC)
Storage temperature 32oF to 86oF (0oC to 30oC)
General Specifications
AC charger bulk charging current 500 mA (maximum)
Peak charging voltage 14.2 V (nominal)
Charge restart voltage 12.9 V (nominal)
Float charge current 1 mA (nominal)
Charger input socket current 3 A (maximum)
Charging System
DC
Internal battery type Sealed lead-acid, AGM
Internal battery capacity 12 Ah, 120 CCA
Internal battery voltage 12 Vdc
DC power socket (circuit breaker) 12 A (automatic reset)
Jump-start cables 24” (610 mm), 8 AWG
Air compressor 250 psi
Flashlight LED (rechargeable)
From AC outlet Max. 24 hours*
From DC outlet Max. 2.5 hours*
*Maximum charging time occurs when battery is completely discharged
Charging Time

And Duracell 400:AC
AC output power (max. continuous) 340 W
AC output power (peak) 450 W
AC output surge capacity (peak) 600 W
AC output voltage (nominal) 115 V
AC output frequency 60 Hz
AC output waveform Modified Sine Wave
Inverter no-load current < 0.5 amps (battery drain with no load on inverter)
Inverter low-battery alarm 11.0 V (nominal)
Inverter low-battery shutdown 10.5 V (nominal)
AC charger bulk charging current 400 mA (maximum)
Peak charging voltage 15.0 V (nominal)
Charge restart voltage 12.9 V (nominal)
Float charge current 1 mA (nominal)
Charger input socket current 2.5 A (maximum)
Charging System
DC
Internal battery type Sealed lead-acid, AGM
Internal battery capacity 17 Ah, 170 CCA
Internal battery voltage 12 Vdc
DC power socket (circuit breaker) 12 A (automatic reset)
Part number 852-1950-07
Unit dimensions (L x W x H) 8 x 16 x 9.5” (20.3 x 40.8 x 24.1 cm)
Unit weight 19.35 lb (8.78 kg)
Warranty Six months
Operating temperature 32oF to 104oF (0oC to 40oC)
Storage temperature 32oF to 86oF (0oC to 30oC)
General Specifications
Jump-start cables 24” (61 cm), 4 AWG
Air compressor 150 PSI
Incandescent light 5 watt 12 volt lamp

Or there is the 600: * I can only afford 24w solar panel max. So I would have more capacity, but not collection:
AC
AC output power (max. continuous) 480 W
AC output power (5 min) 600 W
AC output surge capacity (peak) 960 W
AC output voltage (nominal) 120 V
AC output frequency 60 Hz
AC output waveform Modified sine wave
Inverter no-load current < 0.20 amps (battery drain with no load on inverter)
Inverter low-battery alarm 11.0 V
Inverter low-battery shutdown 10.5 V
Product Specifications
Duracell Powerpack 600 Portable & Emergency Power
Part number 852-2007
Unit dimensions (L x W x H) 19.25 x 8.25 x 11.25” (48.9 x 21 x 28.6 cm)
Unit weight 32 lb (14.5 kg)
Warranty Six months
Operating temperature 32°F to 104°F (0°C to 40°C)
Storage temperature 32°F to 86°F (0°C to 30°C)
General Specifications
AC charger bulk charging current 1 A (maximum)
Peak charging voltage 14.2 V (nominal)
Charge restart voltage 12.9 V (nominal)
Float charge current 1 mA (nominal)
Charger input socket current 2.5 A (maximum)
Charging System
DC
Internal battery type Sealed lead-acid, AGM
Internal battery capacity 28 Ah, 280 CCA
Internal battery voltage 12 Vdc (nominal)
DC power socket (circuit breaker) 12 A (automatic reset)
From AC outlet Max. 35 hours*
From DC outlet Max. 4 hours*
*Maximum charging time occurs when battery is completely discharged
Charging Time
Jump-start cables 24” (610 mm), 4 AWG
Radio AM 526 - 1606 kHz / FM 82 - 105 MHz
Flashlight 5 W (replaceable)

So how's this stuff look? What do you think? Again, I need to be able to charge an average 3cell lith-ion, 6aa's, 3aaa's, cell, gps, cannon point and shoot, and maybe an ipod. Every 2 days. Am I at least getting close?

As far as your black lights go,....
I am sure you could make an awesome one. I want one maybe this fall? But for right now I am so broke. Just getting the power and a computer so I don't completely fall of the face of the earth is going to make me so broke I am going to struggle buying food along the way. I am planning on stopping in Tucson to try and come up with some cash to keep going. So I don't have that in my budget right now. But I have some work lined up this fall, and if all goes well, and another scorpion expedition someone is planning internationally falls through, I will be back in Austin next winter asking you to make me the sickest black light ever!

Right now though, I have 2 A49's to take already. They are 49 1 watt led's each. They are pretty nice. Machined aluminum and all that. But I've wanted a better light for a while. Too bad I didn't meet you a while ago when finances were better, or I'd have one from you already!

Thanks again for your help and advice. I know this is a complicated need/trip. Lot's of "normal" solutions don't really apply to this trip. It's going to be interesting, at very least, don't you think? Ryan

Nomadinexile@hushmail.com

 

[Oznog]

Well, lead-acid is a fairly usable choice, but the weight will be high. A 10Ah batt is a bit over 7 lbs, and you probably need a deep-cycle version.
The inverter's no-load current draw is going to be the biggest issue. <0.2A is fairly good, although lower is better. See if it takes 3 hrs to charge a batt at 0.2A no-load, then 7.2W/hr is wasted just keeping the inverter on, power which is not delivered to the load. But in my experience the no-load draw often varies wildly from spec, may be more, may be less, you have to actually test each one. The worst ones are the ones which keep the fan on all the time when powered, not just when they get hot. Good news is that the smaller inverters are generally lower no-load draws.

Xantrex XPower is good. Xantrex makes a lot of the inverters on the market now.

A bike dynamo generator might make sense. It'll drag a little, but not too much. Of course if you're camped and not biking it's not able to work. I don't even know who makes dynamos nowadays.

Is it critical the panel be able to fold up in one of those kits? Those lose a lot of power for the area used, because a lot of the area is the folding joint and not solar cell.

Those kits look super-expensive. I bet you could land a much higher performance panel, one which max'ed out your available space- for much cheaper- add a good inverter and a quality deep-cycle (they probably throw the cheap UPS batts in there) and you could be much better off. If you actually had hundreds of dollars like that to spend, you could get a lithium pack with a charge controller. That'll yield several times more capacity per unit weight, and its charge cycle is MUCH more efficient. Otherwise, deep cycle lead acid like an BB Battery EB10-12 maybe.

Lead acid battery's usable capacity goes down substantially in the cold. Be warned.

It would be a good idea to charge the device batts directly off the panel while the sun's up. That avoids the energy lost in cycling the battery.

Well, a good estimate might be to anticipate about 50% average of the solar cell's capacity for 8 hrs of daylight. That kinda anticipates morning and evening and occasional cloud cover. So 12W panel=48W/hrs.
10% cycling loss in the battery (might be worse if you're running it way down though)
10% inverter losses while running
Plus no-load losses for every hour needed for charging
Charger losses...? I'd shoot for... eh, call it 30%. Honestly I have no basis for a figure and it's just a guess. I kinda think this could be overly optimistic.

So say the camcorder batt says 2AH 6V, that's 12W/hrs (from dead, which it probably won't be). The inefficiencies raise the power needs by 1.76x, to 21W/hr, but that's still only half the panel's capacity. But you're talking about charging a number of batts, not just one... then again, you probably won't run every battery down all the way every day. And the size of battery I threw out is only an example. 6AA NiMh= 14.4AH, needs 25.44W/hr out of the panel.

Now note this. The inverter needed 7.2W/hr to stay on for 3 hrs to charge the batt. That's more than half of what was actually put into the device batt! But it'd be better to charge all batts at once and turn it off. Kinda like getting a roommate and sharing the cost of a month's rent. But, anyhow, low no-load current is quite important so seek one which you know has a low no-load draw.

Also of note, chargers typically start out very fast for the bulk phase then spend like the second half "finishing" the charge where it's only added a bit more to the device batt every hour. If your no-load draw is high, this becomes significantly wasteful since the inverter still uses that same no-load draw even though the load is very light.

Beware partial shading on panels. It's surprisingly bad. This may be a problem if the panel's close to you and the sun's in front of you, you don't want any part of your shadow on the cells.

 

[Oznog]

So here's a pretty decent starting point I think:
10AH 12V batt= $35
Xantrex XPower 400 inverter= $40
40W solar panel=$120-$250

I don't think 12W is gonna be anywhere near adequate. 24W is so borderline even by optimistic thinking, I doubt it'll cut it. A 40W panel can fit into your space, and I think that will be needed to do what you want.

But that batt's small. It may not be enough to hold enough to charge the batt load. In which case you want to be sure to leave all the chargers going while the sun's out, or go with a half-U1 20AH battery. That'll run like $70, but that's like 14 lbs of lead there. A lot to add to a bike.

Another recommendation. That shading may end up being a killer to the panel output. Going west, anything past noon could end up at only 1/2 or 1/3 the panel's full power. A recumbent bike has some interesting possibilities there because the rider doesn't "loom" over the panel rack. Recumbents are more efficient to ride anyways, which is gonna be quite significant over this sort of range.

Or better yet a trike. See I suspect you're gonna quickly exceed the weight and volume capacity of the bike. 6 gal water=48 lbs, plus 14 lbs of batt, and we haven't even weighed in the panel, laptop, food, tent etc. Starting to look like it's too encumbered to even take through town. A trike could carry more but I really don't know too much about them. Having a wide 2-wheel axle, you might be able to place panels to the left and/or right and avoid shading when going east-west.

 

[summitville]

If you are good with a soldering iron then buy "chipped" or "split" Solar Cells and make your own 100 Watt 3'x3' Panel at a deep discount ($140?). I would use it to charge a 12 Volt Deep Cycle Battery (used?) . Finally, run / recharge each device as needed from the 12V Battery or a small 12VDC to 110VAC Inverter (build your own?) . That gets you down to just three devices to make/buy/borrow: 1) A Solar Panel + Diode, 2) A 12 Volt Battery and 3) An Inverter. Everything you buy should run off of 12VDC (preferred) or 110VAC. You must keep the Solar Panel facing somewhat towards the sun all day / every day to charge the main 12V battery and/or recharge device batteries, as needed, too. You need SUN ALL DAY to recharge your main battery. The laptop could run 1 hour per day for seven days (a week!) without needing any recharge. The Inverter will be rated in Watts by the maximun power you need at any one time which should be pretty low. A 100 watt Dell Laptop will run for 10 hours from a 100Amp-Hour Deep Cycle Battery. Run as much as possible directly from the 12VDC battery - Use the 100VAC Inverter only when necessary.

 

[Oznog]

If you are good with a soldering iron then buy "chipped" or "split" Solar Cells and make your own 100 Watt 3'x3' Panel at a deep discount ($140?). I would use it to charge a 12 Volt Deep Cycle Battery (used?) .

Well, whether working with "chipped" or "shaded" cells, here's a sad problem with solar cells:
They're current devices, and look at the IV curve. Say you've got 34 3A cells, each is about 0.55v open circuit and 0.4V at the maximum power point (13.6v, good for slow-charging a batt).

Well, if you partially shade a SINGLE cell from direct sunlight, say it becomes a 1.5A source instead of 3A. Well, that limits the ENTIRE panel, because all the current must pass through all the series cells. Instead of losing 1/2 of 1/34th the panel capacity as expected, it loses half the capacity. That's my fear about putting it on the rack and casting an afternoon shadow from his body on it.

Damaged cells do the exact same thing when their power output is not matched; the weakest cell limits the power. If you're extremely methodical you can measure and add chips to the bad ones. This could in theory be cost efficient, but this isn't nearly as space-efficient as square cells of identical size and shape, and his space is kind of the limiting factor here.

100AH batt will weigh ~80 lbs. No way can he carry that on a bike, in fact, the volume alone is too big to fit on a bike!
Now if we went LiFePO4 lithium, we could get 40AH in 15 lbs! Spacewise, 180mmx140mmx140mm. But that batt would run like $350. Awesome batt though, I'd buy it off you when you're done with. They're good for over 1000 charges.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Wow. Now you are blowing my plans to the wind! Ok. So the bike is rated to carry 200 lbs of cargo. Outside of rider weight. I'm 145 incidentally. Now weather I can drag 200 lbs up and down mountains is another story, but that's a bridge I will cross soon enough. I'm got a short 8-9 day ride down to my start point region planned for 2 weeks. Only 6 lbs of water at a time and less other gear too. No solar, no computer. So far, I've gotten grocery's with my girlfriend on the back for a combined weight of 150, and it was easy on the flats I live on. Again, mountains are another story...

So wow, 40 watts huh? That's huge. The problem I have with the solid solar panels, is this is going to be rough. There are going to be times the bike falls over. If I have hard panels sticking out, it's over. No juice then and there. So I don't know what to do about that. What if I decided to take 4 hours everyday to park, and keep a 24 angled at the sun perfectly, maybe have a siesta? I will be in the desert, so I should have a lot of sun. Could I at least charge the laptop directly like that? I guess I could double up my cannon batteries. I don't know. I'm going to have to read these posts again and get back to work huh? What do you think about this as a possible option? What if I get a few good quality car batteries (or something 12V and similar), and stopped at Mechanics and paid them $5 a pop to charge them. Would they do that? Do you think it would be $5? I am going to stop a few places tomorrow around here and see the reactions I get. If I could hit a car shop once a week and that would cover it, maybe that would work? Boy, this technology is still really limited for certain applications! The dynamos aren't that great by the way. My bike is super heavy as it is, then loaded, I don't know about all that. From what I've read, their good for a bike light. That's about it. Thanks so much for your time. Oh, yeah, I can't get another bike. and I'm not going to get another trailer. I may have to just have little to no time on the computer until I am actually in a city with outlets everywhere. Hmm, I have a lot to think about. thanks again, ryan

 

[Nomadinexile]

This LiFePO4, how long would that take to charge, best and worst scenarios, off a 110 wall outlet? At this point, I could buy 2 of them for close to what I'm planning to spend with a 24 and a duracell. If I can figure out a way to get to a wall charger every week or so with one or two of those, and can work off my electrical usage, or tip well or something, how am I looking?

 

[Nomadinexile]

does the fact they are three volt, and the computers are what 11 going to have an effect?

Wow, the computers are 2.2ah and 4.4ah. So 100 is a ton. Or do I have to convert something because of the volts?

sorry, I feel like I'm chasing my own tail right now. This is so confusing. I have a lot to learn about electricity apparently.

Thanks again.

 

[Oznog]

**broken link removed** although the W/sq m seems lower and it may not be protected against abrasion damage if you fall on it. If it folds up, it'll still likely damage it I'd think.

I think a lot of this could be care in how much power you actually USE. If you have an efficient laptop with a big batt that is good for 8 hrs, and you actually only use the laptop an hr a day, well, you might only need one spare batt and not worry about charging on the road at all.

Well, car batteries aren't deep cycle. They degrade after only a few cycles. One of the most cost-effective would be the Wal-Mart Maxx-29, that's sort of a deep cycle, close to 100AH in theory if you actually run it all the way down. Of the 3 I've used, one died within a week BTW. One lasted several years. One like 6 months. Very heavy beast. Also, being flooded, you sure as hell don't want to let the bike fall over. Acid may spill. Should be under $100 IIRC, so the price can't be beat.

LiFePO4? If the charger's powerful enough, 3 hrs easily. Regardless of batt size. If you don't mind exceeding the "recommended regular use" rating, 1 hr. It'll do fine. Charger would need to be VERY powerful.
Don't underestimate the hospitality. If you're eating somewhere, hey you're a customer, maybe you can beg a charging outlet. This is like 5 cents of power and you're buying lunch and a nice tip. Now a flooded-plate Maxx-29, you're not gonna bring that into the back room. But a 15 lb, small, sealed LiFePO4 pkg, much more discreet. And of course charge all your other batts while you're there.

Also, some other ways to rethink it. Maybe if the bike won't cut it and you need something else, maybe you could find a sponsor. A bike shop willing to donate or at least loan you a bike. Maybe someone to front a grand or two in cash. Hey, Paypal cyberbegging websites have been known to pull in some returns.

If you wanna get high-tech, an electric bike hub motor can be used as a vastly more powerful dynamo, it'll also take much more work to turn but I have a theory that those old bike dynamos were horribly inefficient. Those were only like 3W out, but the drag was quite noticeable. Now human legs of a fit adult can sustain about 200W max. LOT of work. Normal, casual biking might be like half of that. Adding 20W of generator would be quite noticeable, but so is a heavy multi-day storage batt and high wind drag panel. The recumbent could already SAVE you 20W of work for the same speed, easily.

How long do you expect to spend camping in the day? Because you might be able to bring a stack of thinner panels and get a lot of charging in with an area which could not be done on the back of a bike.

Also, smallest generator around is the EU1000i. 33lbs, 1 KW. Those are SUPER quiet and efficient for a generator, esp at low power. Excellent reliability. Kinda defeats the point, though. If you're carrying an engine around, a motorcycle seems to make more sense. In fact, you could bring along a 1KW hub motor and race around in a bike with the genny running in back like there's no tomorrow (that's the legwork of 4-5 people!). 0.6 gal tank on it will last 3.8 hrs. A lot of public campgrounds do not allow generators to be run, though.

Where are you actually located right now?

 

[Oznog]

does the fact they are three volt, and the computers are what 11 going to have an effect?

Wow, the computers are 2.2ah and 4.4ah. So 100 is a ton. Or do I have to convert something because of the volts?

Yep, for WATT-hrs, multiply AH by volts. Note the 12v batt is 12v. So a 12v, 10AH batt (~7-8 lbs) is 120W-hrs. A 12W panel would need 10 hrs of full sun to charge it.

12v40AH batt might last 4 days. But it depends heavily upon your usage. And hey if you can only manage a smaller 15W solar panel and get 60W-hr per day out of that, that's HALF of what you need (assuming 120W-hr per day for a lot of charging), but that's something. It won't be dead and in need of a charge for 8 days. Which ain't too shabby!

 

[Oznog]

Your link to the special Linux laptop says it's only 1.2W power consumption. 1.2W-hr per day if you use it an hour. That is dramatically less that my estimates. Most laptops take like 10x that. That changes the situation.
And we don't know how much power taking 100-200 pics a day actually uses, or the camera. I started with some fairly pessimistic numbers there. If we get more specific estimates on power needs, that number could come way down. Within the daily capacity of a 24W panel? Maybe, maybe not.

If you can get ahold of a Kill-A-Watt power meter, I think it'll help enormously. Basically charge your batts, take pics and video and run the laptop how you'd expect to use them in a day, start the Kill-A-Watt at 0 watt-hrs, plug in all the chargers and see how many watt-hrs it takes to run the chargers. Add ~20% for inverter inefficiency and battery charge cycle. Then we've got a question of what a solar panel will actually be able to prove in a day in the way you wish to mount it.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Let's scale things down a bit. *btw, that computer is fine for 3rd graders, but not for what I need. I'm going to be going with a "normal" HP mini netbook. 20w/hour.

1. My computer usage is just going to have to plumet. There is no way around it. I'm now planning on maybe 2-3 hours a week. So that's 40-60 watt hours right? Now the kicker is the Camera battery. I don't know about that. I know that I can go 3 days without charging it while I travel. But how much juice that is I don't know.

2. I really don't want to have to stop and charge. But, if there was a way for me to do it for 4 hours a day, and then get on my way, I can do that. What would it take to charge a laptop directly with full sun for 4 hours? 24 watts would do just fine for a 2.2 or 4.4 right? If there are no clouds? If I could do that, I could buy the panels, and a case for them, and still have enough for a camera I can charge on the laptops USB. If I can charge half of it a day, I can upload everything and charge back up. I think I would want about 4.4 for the camera I would buy. Dang. Maybe with a smaller Lifepo4. They have 10 amp ones too. 30 watt hours could cover the camera. So solar direct to computer+back up LifePO4 for camara. Plus separate charger for AA's.

3. I'm close to epoch.

4. My brain is slowly turning to mush. I need a bigger processor and ram myself. This is making me feel like an idiot. I don't know much about this do I? lol



Edit* I am still deciding on what netbook/and maybe camera or video camera to buy. I can't check it's usage.

 

[Oznog]

Well, my old-ass HP Pavilion laptop has a 14.8v, 4.4AH li-ion pack. So, 65W-hr plus charger and inverter losses. A 24W panel could charge that with an average day's output, but, losses considered, that'd probably be all day's output.

I think laptop batteries are substantially smaller now. A batt of this size wouldn't even FIT in a mini-notebook. Also that batt can run the laptop for several hours. If you indeed use only 1 hr/day, then this might only constitute 1/4th or even 1/8th of a 24W panel's output over the course of a week.

I'm not sure you should dismiss the super-low-power laptop. If you're not transcoding movies into a new codec... Web browsing, blogging, uploading, and using a word processor don't need a really powerful machine. Copying off flash disks to a hard drive takes some processing power, but not all that much. I'd keep the option on the table if I were you.

Yeah it's complicated- and when you're trying to budget energy, TANSTAAFL. But that doesn't mean your energy budget can't afford power for these things on solar. It's kinda like "if I get a job in a city, can I afford rent and cable and food and a car?" Without knowing the type of job, and the rent and car payment, that's difficult to answer. Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe "hell no". I think the miniDV recorder I have probably takes like 5x the power of a digital one like you might be looking at. BIIIG difference on the budget.

Kinda funny feeling that the answer right now is "Kinda in the ballpark, but it;s maybe twice as much power as I'll need, or maybe it's only half the power I'll need". LOL that's engineering for ya.

And it's not that much of a biggie if you find you can't charge the batts as much as you need, I mean you're not gonna run out of air and suffocate personally if the battery dies. You might just be using the laptop every other day, or not taking as much video as you'd hoped. You might find that you're not actually gonna take 100-200 photos a day. But, I tell you this- if the battery's flat and you're hoping to get the camera charged again, holding up the panel higher, fanning it, and begging won't hasten its work one bit.

Oh yeah- look this up:
https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html

For your month. The panel's wattage is based on a standard of 1KW/M^2 of sunlight.

Let's select March, and look at central New Mexico. Looks like 6.5-7 KWH/M^2 each day, on average, provided the panel's mounted with no shadow on it and you don't pass under trees or try to stop in the shade without leaving the bike in the sun. Well, I was guesstimating like 4 KWH/M^2 and given that it won't be in the sun for every daylight moment that may or may not be the case. But if it's well exposed all day, my estimates were WAY too conservative. A panel COULD produce 69% more than my estimate on an average day. And on some days, it can produce more, some days less. That figure already accounts for cloudy days in its estimate. At least, clouds which normally occur in the specified month.

Another downsize though- the panel's output is for when the cells are at 25C. Depending on cell type, they lose output from 0.15%/deg C to 0.5%/deg C. And they'll be pretty darn hot, being basically black and in the sun in the desert. So that might derate the power output by 5%-15% during the hottest part of the day when the sunlight is strongest. This is not easily remedied, cooling systems for cells are almost always too complicated to pull off. Unfortunately, the electrical insulation which supports the back of the cell is generally a good thermal insulator too, so airflow on the backside only partially remedies the problem.

But even with that derating for temp, IF we're gonna say it's gonna be in direct sunlight for pretty much every hour that matters, no shadow from you, you could bump the output over my estimate by another 50%.

Yeah, given that the sun isn't always there, I'd kinda plan for at least 2-3 days' reserve between the device batts and the main storage batt. The laptop batt might be good for 3 days' use in itself. I was in New Mexico two years ago when the whole place flooded... it happens.

Also that estimate is for a flat plate, tilted to a fixed angle to the sun (so it'll need to be jacked up a little to your left if you're headed west). Technically, if you adjust the panel so it points more directly at the sun as it rises and sets, you can get a bit more. Something like 20% more IIRC, but it's probably gonna be too hard to pull off to be honest. The mounting could get pretty weird, and that "perfect" angle changes by the hour and as the road's compass heading changes.

OH hey... why don't you get started with your blog now, and solicit for people along the route to help you out? I mean, I'd drive 20 mi to intercept your route and hang out with you and let you charge off my van batt. I'd bring lunch.

Ever tried to take pics of glowing scorpions before? I did, the pics were kinda psychadelic. I think it was kinda dark and the autofocus got confused trying to make out the picture.

 

[bryan1]

That small battery power laptop is the go for your puter as it runs of AA batteries, has the option of putting a decent sized 2.5" HD in and has an inbuilt SD card socket. Get a digital camera with plenty of optical zoom that takes SD cards and runs of AA batteries. A decent digi camera will takes movies of good quality even on low settings to the extent of the storage on the SD card. Once you fill a few SD cards with pictures and movies just upload them to the HD on the laptop, wipe them and away you go again taking snaps and making movies.

Buy a heap of AA nimh rechargables say enough for 5 or 6 runs of the laptop and camera then you'll have plenty of power for both of them.

As far as charging the batteries go there are rapid chargers that will charge in a few hours or less. Also make a small dual axial generator thats connected to your back wheel with and easy engagement linkage. When your traveling downhill engage it and if made right it will output 5-10 amps easily. If your batteries need charging at night have a decent stand to raise the rear wheel off the ground and pedal away till ya buggered charging your batteries.

No solar panels to break or get pinched and with a rapid charger easy charging when you have access to the grid.

Another option for the laptop is a battery pack made from 'D' cells which are now upto the 8ah range. Get enough to make the voltage and you'll have plenty of power for image processing. You could even make a pack for the camera too. The beauty of large capacity nimh rechargeable batteries they are small, cheap and light weight.

Hopefully enough food for thought

Regards Bryan

 

[Oznog]

Actually they make 10AH cylindrical NiMH, at least that's what the nameplate says. However, it's very difficult to manage the charge (long story there) and just not price-competitive with lithium-ion or LiFePO4. More of a problem, the cycle efficiency is low, often like 66%. So for every W-hr you need, your panel or generator needs to put out 1.5W-hr. Bad returns.

In fact, I'd recommend lithium batts over NiMH even for the flashlight and whatever else. The NiMH cycle losses are too taxing.

I'm not gonna dismiss the bike-powered generator, Bryan, I already discussed some issues there. 5-10A is not "easy" though. That's a fairly big generator! Unfortunately, "make a small dual axial generator" is far from a trivial task. Like I say, those little vintage dynamos were only 3W. It'd take a lot of pressure to get that much friction so a generator roller on the tire wouldn't slip. I would think that using an e-bike DC motor might be a good option, the hub motor already has a mounting solution but I'm not sure about what friction load it may be adding. In any case, there's a huge problem that permanent-magnet DC motor output voltage is directly proportional to RPM and thus generally requires a DC/DC regen controller to match the voltage to the battery. THAT part is... well, I could design it if I had the motor to study, and maybe $100-$300 in parts, and a few weeks of free time. Probably won't fit the bill here.

Actually the pimp thing would be to have a big lithium batt and a hub motor and regen controller, use the batt and motor to boost up the hill and regen braking on the way back down, and a little charging while pedaling (which is regen too). But this is a major design task, and I don't think he wants to make it all about the bike.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Okay, so after getting some sleep and some new perspectives, I am scaling things back some more. I don't think I need to worry about charging the computer while I am out. My main concern right now is AA's and cam battery. Everything else can wait for town. Oh, and yeah, I've shot a few black light pics. I've got more on my computer, but here is the link to my photobucket album of some. (I hope I can do this here) Enjoy

Black light Scorpions---- **broken link removed**

And back to the Juice,

Needs:
Ability to turn on Netbook, and load 300-400 pictures from camera to netbook, at least once between city/AC Mainline charging. So we can forget the computer and it’s battery. If I don’t have WiFi, I don’t really need juice anyway. I will write other info on paper.

Ability to take 80 pictures everyday minimum with 6mp Cannon Digital Elph SD630 with a battery that says 3.7V 760mAh(Li-ion) NB4L? Statistics I find say 160 shot battery life. So that battery would need charged every two days.

If I got one of those LifePo4 batteries, that would cover the camera right?
If I can’t do the LifePo4, could I find a way to charge a few of the batteries at the same time without taking up 3-4 outlets? (that doesn’t include other batteries, laptop) So I need to figure out a way to charge either one big battery, or a bunch of little ones, from one outlet, without looking like I’ve gone right off the deep end. Also, I can’t stay indoors and buy food/drinks very often. And I won’t be able to afford it all day anywhere. I can stretch out a cup or two of coffee, read the paper. Maybe 3 hours. (I’m hoping to find urban outlets that can be found in parks and other public areas to supplement other charging locations.
Do you have any ideas for this one? This and the 3 AA’s are the most important things here. Without pictures, I might as well just skip the trip, and go find a job. It’s really that important for what I am doing. And if I am going to get much in the way of donations, this will be why. Giving something to people, whether it is a fleeting dream of living through me, or just to see Something coming out of this trip, especially for others, not just myself, might be a reason for people to donate to me. This isn’t a trip about me riding really far on my bike. That’s coincidental. This trip is about scorpions, arachnids, and my search for them. And I am going to need to photograph a lot of the scorpions I see. It will help in so many ways. I need this a lot more than I will need the computer while I’m out away from things!

My next major concern is of course the AA batteries. I’m looking at NiMH AA’s right now that are 2600 mah (1.5V)

I need to be able to use the approximately 3 per night, If I am a week out. (I think I will actually only be using half of their charge or so a night. The 3 batteries really refer to 3 full batteries. The leds dim after alkalines run for 3-6 hours, I’m assuming the Nicad will perform similarly. That’s 21 batteries. 2.6X1.5= basically 4 watt ah’s right? Times 21=84 watt/hours. But if I only use half, that’s 42 watt/hours right? I’m getting closer I think. By the way, the flashlight claims it can go 15 hours on 3 batteries. I replace when it dims. I have to cut something somewhere, somehow. But I am getting close. I don’t know how to do the math for the camera batteries. They are .76ah’s. that time 3.7 is basically 3 watt ah’s. But that’s not right. I’m pretty sure. So I don’t know how to add that in. But that’s not as much energy as the AA’s, that’s for sure. So maybe the 100Ah LifePo4 would work. If I only use it for 3AA’s and half a elph630 I think it might work. What do you think?

Thanks again for all the help., ryan

 

[Nomadinexile]

That small battery power laptop is the go for your puter as it runs of AA batteries, has the option of putting a decent sized 2.5" HD in and has an inbuilt SD card socket. Get a digital camera with plenty of optical zoom that takes SD cards and runs of AA batteries. A decent digi camera will takes movies of good quality even on low settings to the extent of the storage on the SD card. Once you fill a few SD cards with pictures and movies just upload them to the HD on the laptop, wipe them and away you go again taking snaps and making movies.

Buy a heap of AA nimh rechargables say enough for 5 or 6 runs of the laptop and camera then you'll have plenty of power for both of them.

As far as charging the batteries go there are rapid chargers that will charge in a few hours or less. Also make a small dual axial generator thats connected to your back wheel with and easy engagement linkage. When your traveling downhill engage it and if made right it will output 5-10 amps easily. If your batteries need charging at night have a decent stand to raise the rear wheel off the ground and pedal away till ya buggered charging your batteries.

No solar panels to break or get pinched and with a rapid charger easy charging when you have access to the grid.

Another option for the laptop is a battery pack made from 'D' cells which are now upto the 8ah range. Get enough to make the voltage and you'll have plenty of power for image processing. You could even make a pack for the camera too. The beauty of large capacity nimh rechargeable batteries they are small, cheap and light weight.

Hopefully enough food for thought

Regards Bryan

Thank you so much for your time. I am very appreciative I assure you.

As far as that computer goes, it's not going to happen this time around. Read some reviews about them. I am sure it would be great if I could replace a bunch of stuff. But my budget is stretched to the limit. Especially if I have to get a camera and computer and batteries and yada yada. I would really like to stick with the camera I have. It takes great shots for up close which is most of what I want. Anyway, don't worry about the computer, I think I have that. So now I have about $600 and I need to mostly half charge 3 AA's a day, and half an NBL4 cannon battery. If I could do that off a lifePo4 100Ah, that would be golden. The rest I can work around.

As far as AC rapid chargers go, the problem is, is this is a multi-month trip. Being done with not nearly enough money. I could be eating out of dumpsters in about a month if things don't go well. Really, I'm leaving with like $200 it looks like. So I am not going to have the money to sit in coffee shops/ restaurants/ etc, while I charge 84 batteries on what 8 chargers? while I speed charge 2 in each one? Or I could carry my own 8 strip outlet. No way. Too much money in coffee and tips first, second, too much time, too many charging cycles, and too "loud" for someone who is going to stand out as it is. I don't want to do that. It could work for some trips, not this one.

The bike generators could be okay. But there are a ton of problems with them for this trip at least. First, from what I have read and talked to bike shops about, they are still really inefficent. I don't remember their reasoning, but the only thing I have found them recommended for, is high powered lighting systems. Which, if I could afford, I would consider, as it could save my tail on some of these roads I'm going to be riding on. However, I am hoping not to be doing too much riding at night, until the end of the trip, where mainlines will be closer. I want to ride from 5am to an hour or two before sunset. So I'm not going to worry too much about lights. There may be some dark riding early am, but I can deal. Oh, and the generators drag, would be a killer for me. I'm riding a heavy cargo bike, and I'm planning on carrying up to 150 pounds on it as well, which is my own weight. I am not yet in good enough shape, and the first mountain range is going to just about break me. The generators could work on downhills, but it's too inefficient and hard to find and I can't afford it with everything else, especially considering the extra friction and only being able to modestly trickle charge a (somewhat dangerous apparently) SLA. I don't think it's going to cut it. They are good for city riders lights though!

Thanks again for your time. I hope my reply does not sound "cheeky", that's not my intent, I just want to be open and honest and direct so I can try and figure this out. Because what I really need to be doing right now, is reading about scorpions, and getting my tail in shape! This trip is going to be brutal. ryan

*edit* I don't know nearly enough about electricity if you have noticed. I'm way in over my head here. Anything that is more complicated than about 4 wires, is probably not a good idea. My brain is going to be short of Oxygen most the day, and anything that would have to be adjusted or repaired, or makes the riding much harder, is out.

**Edit I am hoping to avoid having to charge AC but once a week. At least at first. Later, I could have some work come through, and be fine. I could charge when and where I want, and buy the best of everything, but for now, I have about $3-$5 a week to spend outside of groceries.

 

[Nomadinexile]

Actually they make 10AH cylindrical NiMH, at least that's what the nameplate says. However, it's very difficult to manage the charge (long story there) and just not price-competitive with lithium-ion or LiFePO4. More of a problem, the cycle efficiency is low, often like 66%. So for every W-hr you need, your panel or generator needs to put out 1.5W-hr. Bad returns.

In fact, I'd recommend lithium batts over NiMH even for the flashlight and whatever else. The NiMH cycle losses are too taxing.

I'm not gonna dismiss the bike-powered generator, Bryan, I already discussed some issues there. 5-10A is not "easy" though. That's a fairly big generator! Unfortunately, "make a small dual axial generator" is far from a trivial task. Like I say, those little vintage dynamos were only 3W. It'd take a lot of pressure to get that much friction so a generator roller on the tire wouldn't slip. I would think that using an e-bike DC motor might be a good option, the hub motor already has a mounting solution but I'm not sure about what friction load it may be adding. In any case, there's a huge problem that permanent-magnet DC motor output voltage is directly proportional to RPM and thus generally requires a DC/DC regen controller to match the voltage to the battery. THAT part is... well, I could design it if I had the motor to study, and maybe $100-$300 in parts, and a few weeks of free time. Probably won't fit the bill here.

Actually the pimp thing would be to have a big lithium batt and a hub motor and regen controller, use the batt and motor to boost up the hill and regen braking on the way back down, and a little charging while pedaling (which is regen too). But this is a major design task, and I don't think he wants to make it all about the bike.

Also, look at the frame shot in my bike album on photo bucket, (link on page1) I don't know where I'd fit it. This isn't a "normal" bike. The hub would be good idea, but they are expensive, I would need a whole new wheel, or mine rebuilt at least?, And it still wouldn't cut it. I expect a flat a day on average. I'm going to have to pull of tire, and disconnect wires too? I don't think the hub is the answer here. I think I would do a lifepo4 first. I can charge it on one outlet. It's not going to look crazy. It's not going to have 30 wires coming out of my backpack.
I really hope that battery will work for the AA's and camera. That would be grand. It would hit the sweet spot. I could probably squeeze in a couple extra SD cards, so I don't have to turn the computer on except to load them online. That would be cool..

As far as electrical design projects, er, no. Broke as I am, I would rather pay for something off the shelf that I can return if it doesn't work. That I don't have to fiddle with. I want to be able to get this in the mail or whatever, charge it up, and ride. That would be so great. If I could get my "juice" down to 15 lbs and some chargers, that would be cool. I can carry the battery when I have to leave my saddle bags sitting on my bike. That would be the best. Anything that involves me wiring anything, and have to "make" it work, is iffy. I don't even have a wirestripper. I don't have a meter. I have electrical tape and a knife. lol, yeah, this is a lot of give and take, and It looks like I'm mostly giving. So now I need to battery or solar charge NBL4 and 3AA's every 2 days. for a week. Tell me this will work. okay, well, tell me the truth. But I hope that will work with 100Ah LifePo4.