PCB Layout softwares are unecessarily difficult to use?

[Flyback]

Hello,
Its well known that application Software is copied in various countries on an enormous scale.

However, PCB Layout software is very rarely copied.

For example, undercover "industrial spys" went to China and were not able to buy bootlegged copies of Altium, Cadstar, Pads, Pulsonix, Mentor Graphics.
-they were able to buy plenty of other bootlegged software.

Is the reason that the above softwares are not bootlegged in China (for example) because there are no "idiot's guides" to the above softwares?

In other words, if one uses any of the above softwares, then one is highly likely to encounter serious difficulties in using the software, and due to the fact that the User Manuals are kept , shall we say, "not that crystal clear", then if you get stuck using one of these PCB Layout packages, then quite often, the only way to get round your problem is to seek help directly from the PCB Layout software company itself........when you do request help from them, they can then check that you have payed your license fee.

..In this way, the aforementioned PCB Layout softwares manage to avoid having their PCB Layout software getting bootlegged.

Is this true?

Its just that I notice that in the case of the above mentioned softwares, there are no manuals or tutorials etc which aren't originated by the designers of the software itself.

In the case of the Eagle PCB layout software, which *IS* widely used in China, there are loads of "idiots guides" for it, authored by "every man and his dog"...not only that, but the limited version of eagle is free, so nobody has to copy it, as its free anyway.

So is this the reason why there are no crystal clear "idiot's guides" to PCB Layout Software's mentioned above?...ie because they are worried about getting the software bootlegged?

And why are there no learning materials for the aforementioned pcb layout softare packages that are authored externally to the actual software designer company?
That is, why are there no externally authored learning materials for eg Altium, Cadstar, Pads, Mentor graphics, pulsonix, Orcad, etc etc?

 

[ronsimpson]

Been to China. Came back with Altium. (not using it) Worked for a company that uses Altium with out a key. (old copy) Came back with other CAD software. (not using)

I do see your point and mostly agree with it.
The volume on Pads is very low compared to Excel. If you want $5 for a CD you should make something with volume.

 

[Flyback]

Been to China. Came back with Altium. (not using it)

..this is precisely my point,...they CAN copy Altium, and sell it cheaply illegally, but when one encounters serious difficulties in using Altium, then one will be 'snookered', because when you contact Altium to ask them for help with your problem, they will find out that one does not have a license.

Worked for a company that uses Altium with out a key. (old copy)

.....this isn't the same, that company WILL have payed for the Altium in the first place, but they just haven't payed the yearly maintenance and update cost.......when they next get stuck with altium, they will have to contact altium for support, and altium will say they cant give support until they pay the yearly maintenance.
Altium doesn't mind a user trying to get by with an old altium licence...they just wont provide support for it.

 

[jpanhalt]

I doubt that anyone here has any data or other factual information on why 1.35 billion people don't do something.

For example, undercover "industrial spys" went to China and were not able to buy bootlegged copies of Altium, Cadstar, Pads, Pulsonix, Mentor Graphics.

Been to China. Came back with Altium.

I don't even think you have established the correctness of your basic premise. What's the point?

Bootlegging is a market-driven system. Always has been, regardless of the product.

John

 

[Flyback]

JpanHalt,
There is no point in bootlegging a product that you are not going to be able to use without having to go to the authoring company to ask for help...because they will just check whether you have a licence or not, and if you don't, they'll sue you.

The point is this....

lets make PCB Layout software free, then all this making them too difficult will go, and all electronics companies will have more ease in finding people who can use the pcb layout software.

The Far Eastern bootleggers might well sell a bootlegged altium to a westerner, but they will not use it themselves....whats the point?....they'll just get stuck using it, then when they contact the altium apps engineers for support, those apps engineers will ask them why they are using it without a licence.

Sirs/Ma'ams...we need to come together on this......make the pcb layout software free and all our electronics industries will be more productive....benefits all of us.

 

[ronsimpson]

Bootlegging is a market-driven system.

YES
I have (and payed for) a $1000 version of eagle. Use it every week.
I only use a bootlegged copy of Altium to view files from China. Use it rarely, and don't want to use it. I get payed $500 (max) to review a design. I can't pay mega-money to use a program for 2 hours a year. I could log into the China computer and use it by remote control. Not fun and slow.

market-driven

With Eagle CAD I can pay for the software with every job. There are CAD programs that I can not make enough money all year to pay for. We all do what we have to to pay for "bread and butter" or "fish and rice".
I am not promoting hacking! Just agreeing that it is market driven.

 

[jpanhalt]

The point is this....

lets make PCB Layout software free, then all this making them too difficult will go, and all electronics companies will have more ease in finding people who can use the pcb layout software.

...and you talk about going into business? That is a truly admirable goal. Maybe you should be the first to try it.

John

 

[Flyback]

I wont be the first......Microsoft made windows almost free, and we all benefitted in that we don't have to worry whether a printer etc that we buy will be compatible with our computer.
Also, language is free, and we all use it, we can go anywhere in our countries a speak and listen.

The government could fund this and be reimbursed in increased taxes from more productive electronics companies.

 

[eTech]

Sirs/Ma'ams...we need to come together on this......make the pcb layout software free and all our electronics industries will be more productive....benefits all of us.

Hello Flyback....

So....THERE ARE free pcb packages available, they just don't happen to be the products you mention (I think Eagle has a free version however). Whether you can use the free ones or not depends on the requirements.

eT

 

[3v0]

...
The government could fund this and be reimbursed in increased taxes from more productive electronics companies.

We need less government not more ! The current government is very unfriendly to business. It is almost impossible to employ people, taxes are bad, and osha and the epa are always knocking at the door.

 

[ronsimpson]

We need less government not more ! The current government is very unfriendly to business. It is almost impossible to employ people, taxes are bad, and osha and the epa are always knocking at the door.

There are places where people fund new technologies. Several ARM computer boards I have looked at were funded this way. Sorry I can't think of a name.
While I hate dealing with OSHA/EPA they have stopped "black lung disease" in coal mines, etc. Many are alive because of them.
Also hate quarterly tax returns, Need to file early this week. Things are good enough I may need to send money in monthly in the future. Really hate that. I do like driving on roads, etc.
The government will pay to start one business and close another. Very confusing.
Please....keep the government out of funding software.

If you want a better CAD program, make one.
I want a better user interface. Many have tried and look what we have. I started using CAD very early on. Today's user interface is much better!!! It is slowly getting better, mostly because we are asking for better. Keep asking. Keep making it better.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The #1 thing that supports the CAD program is the parts it supports.
Lets say the foot print, the symbol, the 3D model and the SPICE model.

So, if the chip manufacturer provided these and every CAD program could use those we would all be better off. Those CAD people have to spend a lot of time maintaining this database.

We also need a standard mechanism for the CAD program to interrogate the distributors for stock and pricing, so we can get BOM pricing in real time.

Even that gets difficult though. I remember a project I did in high school in '75 where I chose 3 different supermarkets and took a list of about 20 items and did a cost analysis of using 1, 2 or 3 vendors. What a pain. I also picked a very high-end supermarket too. The high end one still is in existence today. They provided home delivery in 1975 and they serve Filet Mignon burgers in their Cafe. I used a mini-computer to do the analysis/

Using as few vendors as possible and the minimum number of shipments makes economic sense. Paying $10 to ship a $0.35 part is expensive.

I'm find that making the footprints are the hard part in most of the packages. Hence, that's what they are marketing. Eagle doesn't support dxf board outlines.

 

[eTech]

The #1 thing that supports the CAD program is the parts it supports.
Lets say the foot print, the symbol, the 3D model and the SPICE model.

So, if the chip manufacturer provided these and every CAD program could use those we would all be better off. Those CAD people have to spend a lot of time maintaining this database.

Well...yeah...but the problem is that most companies have their own standard for CAD tools, version of schematic symbol, and part standards, etc.

We also need a standard mechanism for the CAD program to interrogate the distributors for stock and pricing, so we can get BOM pricing in real time.

CAD developers are beginning to do this. Design Spark is one of them (ModelSource). They only support RS Components though..

I'm find that making the footprints are the hard part in most of the packages. Hence, that's what they are marketing. Eagle doesn't support dxf board outlines.

CAD developers are making this easier to. They now include wizards that walk a user thru the part creation process. The one I've used works surprisingly well, but for some custom parts, expects the user to have detailed info about the part.

Just sharing some thoughts...

eT

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I looked at a few programs such as Target, Designspark, Eagle, Dipttrace and never really sat down to try to draw any package and even a demo version of one of the fancy programs.

There should be a simple tutorial with maybe two or three parts where you have to do everything and they should walk you through it all.

My PCB layout experience comes from the Bishop Graphics era and tapes, learned at Hewlett Packard (ie. Agilent). I also used the DOS program EasyTrax.

 

[ronsimpson]

My PCB layout experience comes from the Bishop Graphics era and tapes

I used to come home with pieces of red, blue and black tape on me. Today no one knows what I am talking about.
My God things today are much faster and better than back in the tape days.
We have people today that want to make their first PCB with out experience, with out knowledge, with out reading a single manual, the program should be so easy to learn you don't need to learn, the PCB must come out perfect, etc. If electronics was this easy every one would do it and those of us this degrees and experience would not have a job. Show me a program, above "solitaire", that does not need a manual. There are classes at school for Word, Excel, spice, etc. Take a class. Read a book. OR Make a program that, does complicated things, with no learning. (give it away for free)

 

[NorthGuy]

Show me a program, above "solitaire", that does not need a manual.

When I was learning EAGLE, I started from reading manual. IMHO, it was very poorly written and I couldn't figure out anything. So, I put the manual away and started fiddling with the program. It took me a while, but I figured it out, and designed a good PCB.

 

[eTech]

I used to come home with pieces of red, blue and black tape on me. Today no one knows what I am talking about.
My God things today are much faster and better than back in the tape days

Lol

I know exactly what your taking about...light tables, tape, 4:1 artworks,
Yup... Been there, done that...

eT

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The coolest thing, I remember was the huge "walk-in" camera. I can't really describe it, but it was cool for creating the films.

 

[Flyback]

When I was learning EAGLE, I started from reading manual. IMHO, it was very poorly written and I couldn't figure out anything

I find that the manuals written by the authors of pcb layout software packages are all very poor......with eagle, its the externally authored tutorials that are the best.

This is the same for altium, though with altium there are fewer external tutorials.

With many pcb packages, there are utterly NO external tutorials

 

[jpanhalt]

I find that the manuals written by the authors of pcb layout software packages are all very poor......with eagle, its the externally authored tutorials that are the best.

Probably a valid observation. The instructions are often not intended as a tutorial. They are condensed, much like datasheets for MCU's are not intended as tutorials.

This is the same for altium, though with altium there are fewer external tutorials.

Data? A quick search of Amazon reveals far more more books on Altium (12) than on Eagle (2), based on finding reference to the respective program in the title . A Google search on tutorial for each reveals a large number for both.

With many pcb packages, there are utterly NO external tutorials

I'm curious. Can you name more than three (i.e., "many") commercial programs for which there are no external resources?

John