Non Standard DIP Pin Sizes

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

You have to hand it to these guys: https://solarbotics.com/product/42045/ Note the warning - May not fit in standard holes. But, they don;t TELL you the pin diameter. They have it half right.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

Oh yeah i see what you mean. Thanks for providing that link.

They have added "When using ZIF sockets, keep in mind that the pins are a bit wider than regular IC pins...may not fit in a board made for an IC chip..." plus more in the description. At least they are nice enough to mention that.

Just for fun i think i'll see if a ZIF socket fits into another ZIF socket. Why do this? Well if the first ZIF socket can take 20000 chip insertion/removal cycles, then TWO ZIF sockets (first plugged into second) can take about 400 million insertion/removal cycles if you are willing to (as time goes by) purchase 20000 ZIF sockets <ha ha>.
It does sound funny, but if you really had to do that many chips it would pay off as the first ZIF socket would not have to be unsoldered until after 400 million cycles whereas with only one ZIF socket it would have to be unsoldered (and a new one soldered in) after only 20000 cycles. But then again that's about 380 years if one cycle can be completed in 30 seconds. So for most practical purposes that brings us down to about 1 or 2 million cycles, but that's still a lot more than 20000. The number of ZIF sockets then comes down to about 50 plus the first one. Cost about 500 dollars USD.

 

[4pyros]

Any ideas why this is so? I am sure they can be made more standard one way or another. Why make then non standard? That makes it hard for a manufacturer to use a ZIF socket as an afterthought.

Even if the ZIF sockets had smaller pins they still would not meet DIP standards.
The bodies are much to big, in fact they would not be able to replace most DIPs because they would run into other parts.
So in the end they could never be able to meet DIP specs.
You can use sockets and chip carriers to replace DIPs.

 

[MrAl]

Hi there 4pyros,

Yes, very good point and that is the view that Northguy was taking too.

My view is a little different, although i can see your point and why it makes sense too. My view is that just because something is inherently different about a product (the ZIF socket in that style has to have a bigger body not even considering the pins yet) that doesnt mean we should design it with still yet another different specification. My view is that it should be as close as possible ot the original standard.

My case in point is the board i have which does in fact already have the board space without moving anything except the tiny ceramic 0.1uf capacitor. The capacitor can be removed and soldered onto the back of the board across the two socket pins #1 and #20 (on board socket pins #1 and #14). But by making the pins extra wide, this is seriously difficult as even board traces would have to be run with wires after drilling the holes bigger.
Another point is that this is not the only style of ZIF socket made. There are also low profile versions which are closer to the size of a regular socket, but they have bigger pin widths too (at least the ones i was about to find). I am not sure if they are good quality as the style we have been looking at (with the little bat handle) but that's a secondary factor here.

This problem that came up deserves looking into, after all, why change the pin dimensions of a socket? The most likely reason is manufacturing cost. The manufacturer probably found that the pins that way make it cheaper to manufacture yet still get something that can be called a ZIF socket. Doing it another way would hve cost more and that would translated to the buyer's cost.
What they did not realize was that by making it still yet even more different, they lost customers. The higher cost also tells me that they did not sell as many as they should have. Perhaps the other factor is that not that many products actually need ZIF sockets in the first place.

 

[4pyros]

This problem that came up deserves looking into, after all, why change the pin dimensions of a socket? The most likely reason is manufacturing cost. The manufacturer probably found that the pins that way make it cheaper to manufacture yet still get something that can be called a ZIF socket. Doing it another way would hve cost more and that would translated to the buyer's cost.
What they did not realize was that by making it still yet even more different, they lost customers. The higher cost also tells me that they did not sell as many as they should have. Perhaps the other factor is that not that many products actually need ZIF sockets in the first place.

Yes its all about cost.
No they did not loose their big customers, just maybe some hobbyists.
Most of them were/are used on programmers.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Way long ago, I was able to just plug a ZIF socket into a 2716 socket without problems.

Now, just like everything else you can't ASS-U-ME anything. You can't even assume the picture is the the same as the product. I ordered a standalone laptop battery charger. What I got didn't look at all what the picture was.

I do point out errors at digikey, mouser and Newark. Some take a while to get my point across. I failed to get the picture point across to Online components though. They work on a part number only basis. You might see a straight tact switch for a right angle one or you might see a cap for a switch. Anything on the datasheet is fair game.

Some people care. Some don't.

Like: Oh, you wanted oil with your oil change, That's just the charge for labor.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

KeepIt:
Yes i know what you mean and it is not limited to parts purchases. A short time ago a friend went to a restaurant for turkey dinner a place we had been to many times before. When he got the turkey they gave him no gravy. He told the waitress he didnt get any. She brought hiim some *beef* gravy. He said that was beef gravy, she said, "Oh you want turkey gravy", he said "yes of course". Funny.

4pyros:
I did not say they lost any big customers, although they may have. What i said was that if they made it more standard they would not loose *any* customers. not only that, this kind of thing has a trickle down effect where one person tells another person, then anther, etc., until other people start to realize they could use one with their product too or just offer it as a 'option', and do it with no board rework or little board rework. So all i am stating is that the MORE standard the part is the MORE people can use it. The less standard the LESS people can use it and therefore the LESS people can buy it. It's that simple. They wanted to *cut* costs by makin9 it cheaper so they can sell it at the same price. Once they do that it makes it more difficult for manufacturers to use it in their product.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Mom was in a skilled nursing facility facility and when I came in, the nurses at the nursing station were commenting, that someone ordered a hamburger from their kitchen and that's what they got: a hamburger without the bun.

 

[4pyros]

this kind of thing has a trickle down effect where one person tells another person, then anther, etc.,

Sorry MrAl no offense but they have been making this things for 20-30 years and this problem never trickled down to you. LOL

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

KeepIt:
Wow, that's just crazy, but that's indicative of what i've been seeing too in the sort of recent past. Just nutty stuff.

4pyros:

Sorry MrAl no offense but they have been making this things for 20-30 years and this problem never trickled down to you. LOL

Ha ha, well last couple weeks i've gotten pretty wet now he he.
I also believe that they used to make them with more standard pins like KeepIt remembers. It's been so long now though since i've used them that much. I cant remember how i did this last time. I also built a EPROM programmer and used a ZIF socket but cant remember how that worked out either as it was 35 years or more ago That was a bigger socket though like 40 pin with 0.6 inch row spacing or something like that.
What i think happened is that there was yet another company that did make them more standard and maybe they disappeared. Either that or else i figured out a simpler trick to get them to work with a regular socket. Maybe i used a single wipe standard socket as the carrier as dual wipe sockets dont work. Maybe i'll ask around some more and do some more searching and see what i can come up with. I guess i dont need it now though as i have the adapted version complete and working, but just for some piece of mind i'd like to find a company that makes them with more standard pins, if that company still makes them and/or still exists.

Here is an example of such a socket from Aries, but it is a 24 (or more) pin device which has either 0.5 inch row spacing or 0.6 inch row spacing.
If we can find their 20 pin ZIF socket that will probably have 0.3 inch row spacing (on the bottom pins not the socket holes). That's if they still make it.

 

[4pyros]

I think 3M made them for some time.

 

[MrAl]

Hi,

Oh they did? Maybe there are some still floating around somewhere then. The ones i see now are labeled "Textool" which makes no sense.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

KeepIt:
I found this just a little while ago, maybe it can help with your requirement for a 9v adapter.

https://www.nitroplanes.com/82p-ad-9v-powerlead.html

I have no experience with this company or their products so i cant comment on their shipping or anything else, i just found them.

 

[atferrari]

Hello,
There are a number of different pin sizes, shapes, and diameters. ................ Any ideas?

Hola MrAl,

Tell me about coincidences and/or sheer luck. Myself, I was thinking of soldering a small building block for mi breadboard to accomodate 40-pins PIC micros feeling discouraged because all ZIF sockets in my drawers I could recall, were as you described.

Minutes after rereading the whole thread I went to my bench and run across of a 40-pins socket that has been floating around intact, for YEARS. I bought it in the States, more than 25 years ago.

See the pictures.



It fits the breadboard perfectly.

By the ID, I searched and found this. Scroll down to bottom.

Could it be of help? Buena suerte.

 

[Mickster]

Hi Agustin,
that is the exact same ZIF that I have, but the problem MrAl has is that the 'pins' using the term loosely, do not fit into a standard DIP socket easily, along with not fitting into a PCB which has holes drilled for standard DIP socket pins.
This particular ZIF will fit into a breadboard quite well, since the metal fold which creates the 'pin' is aligned perfectly with the spring contacts in a breadboard.
Try fitting this ZIF into a double-wide (0.6") IC socket and you will see where MrAl is basing his observations from....
As an example, you could liken it to trying to insert a TO220 transistor/regulator across 3 rows of a breadboard and see the relationship between inserting this type of ZIF into a 0.6" DIP socket.

Regards.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

Mickster:
Thanks for explaining that so well. Yes it's the bottom pin sizes that caught me by surprise and that's the strange thing about these sockets. It appears that atferrari's socket is similar.

atferrari:
Thanks for the pictures there. From the second one i can see that the bottom pin sizes are the same as my socket, so it causes a couple problems. Also, what is the row spacing on that socket?

Here is another way of explaining this:
I can take a standard machine tooled DIP socket and plug it right into the board and it makes really good contact. I can also take a standard dual wipe DIP socket and plug it right into the board and it also makes really good contact. I can NOT plug the ZIF socket into the board because the bottom pin sizes are too wide. The goal is to be able to easily convert a non ZIF socket to a ZIF socket for board like programmer boards where you have to swap out the chip to be programmed very often.
I can also remove the machine tooled DIP socket in the board (the way it came) and solder in a new one. I can also remove the machine tooled DIP socket in the board and solder in a new dual wipe socket (although i would go with the better machine tooled socket). I can NOT remove the machine tooled socket in the board now and replace it with the ZIF socket again because the bottom pins are too wide, and i can not enlarge the holes in the PC board because that would destroy signal paths and make the hole clad too fragile for soldering.

So one of the points is that the board has to be designed to accept a ZIF socket properly, which is much different than a machine tooled socket or dual wire socket.

My requirements are such that i need a socket that has a row spacing of 0.3 inches. This is for a standard 0.3 inch wide DIP package. They also make sockets with 0.6 inch row spacing for 0.6 inch wide DIP packages, but i can not use that. I could make an adapater board, but i was hoping to not have to do that.

My solution was to solder a 'standard' 20 pin DIP header to the bottom of the 20 pin ZIF socket. The 20 pin DIP header has standard square bottom pins that fit nicely into the machine tooled socket already on the board. I will caution the reader here though that not all DIP headers are 'standard' either, and some have VERY large diameter pins that are also not standard and need a special mating connector or larger diameter PC board holes also. The best bet if doing it this way is to check the data sheet for the DIP header in question, and cross check the socket it is to be used with for the largest diameter pin it will accept. That helps to determine if a given DIP header will work or not.

Also good luck to you too.

 

[atferrari]

Hola Mickster and Mr Al,

My bad. Now I understand the complaint / problem!

Just checked my ZIF socket in the picture: it accepts 0,3 spaced chips, its own pins are 0,6 spaced AND they fit (albeit snuggly) in the breadboard currently in use.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

MrAl:

Found one that I think will work: https://www.electrokit.com/en/zif-sockel-20pin-0-3-3m-textool.41516 0.012 x 0.030 pins. https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media..._Zn8tBevUqe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=ts0365.pdf

Considering, the hole size for this https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTt4X&Em8&aEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666-- DIP socket is 0.039" it would work.

 

[MrAl]

Hi again,

KeepIt:
I dont see what you mean here, as that socket is standard and accepts small pin diameters only. The drill hole size does not matter because that is the board hole size. What matters is the 0.010 to 0.011 inch diameter spec.

If the holes in the board were drilled to accommodate the standard socket then that particular BOARD would probably accept a ZIF socket, but that's not the way they are always drilled as sometimes the hole diameter is made for a "chip" and a socket works too. So the "Textool" ZIF might fit into some boards but not others.

One thing is for sure though, it wont fit into a standard dual wipe socket as one of your links points to. What it may fit into is a SINGLE wipe socket but i have a feeling it would still look a bit funny because it would tax the capability of the single wipe socket to the extreme where it would no longer be able to hold a regular IC chip (permanent pin acceptor deformation).

BTW did you see the 9v battery adapter i posted previously a few posts back?


atfararri:
Yes this is an unusual application but i feel others could benefit from something similar.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Yep, feel your pain. Still probably closer than the Chinese one.