Ignition Retarding circut

[ben shinkle]

Hello im Trying to build a circut using a 555 to retard my timing on my 95 VW 2.0. in order to run alternative fuels.
it has a haul efect sensor in the distributor, and a coil. not sure were to splice into system and how to build a circut proper to delay the spark? any help would be greatly apreciated.

 

[tcmtech]

Which alternative fuel are you using?
And with a distributor system you just loosen the clamp or bolt that holds it in place and manually turn it forwards or back.

 

[Tom81]

I had a similar idea but with fuel injection - kind of like a piggyback controller which intercepts the ECU's signal to the injector drivers and extends the "On-Time" but I'll save that one for another post...

A few things to consider...

On some older cars that use Electronic ignition, a small pick up coil (or hall effect sensor) will send a small signal to the ignitor, which in turn will discharge (collapse) the Ingition Coil and fire one of the cylinders. Using a monostable 555 timer circuit might work, although I think you'd need to place it inbetween the hall effect sensor and ignitor. Best to test the hall effect sensor signal with a Oscilloscope first and work out what sort of waveform it produces.

Small changes in timing can lead to big changes in spark timing! approach with caution. it could be spluttering like a dog from just the smallest retard timing.

Changing it manually might be an option as tcmtech mentioned, although getting it right every time isnear impossible. I changed the timing on my celica once because it was pinging on hot days. All it ended up doing was drastically reducing the power and low end torque.

The car might already have complex ignition timing maps built into its ECU which monitor and change timing to account for different quality fuels. Usually this is the case if it has a knock sensor.

-Tom

 

[ben shinkle]

Hydrogen

Hydrogen mostly, but i would like to switch back and forth from gasoline and hydrogen or hydroboost. wich would require a later detination. i will have to check the pattern on the hall effect. it does have a knock sensor, but it seems to me if i get the timing correct there shouldnt be a issue. because no knock hopefully. i dont want to reinvent the wheel so using what is already there would be easyer, and how to hook it up into the system i know wich wire goes to the computer from the hall effect.

 

[Tom81]

Hydrogen? That's a big task. I think the ignition timing is the least of your worries! If you're going to start experimenting with Hydrogen on your car, probably best to do it on a test mule/doner car first. How far into it are you? Goodluck with the project.

 

[tcmtech]

Real H2 type hydrogen or that HHO crap?

With real hydrogen you need to advance the ignition a little and greatly increase your engines compression ratios before you will see a gains of any sort. Other wise all you see is severe losses.
Real hydrogen is fed to an engine with a vapor carburetor system just like a propane or natural gas dual fuel conversion uses.
Hydrogen also takes far more compression to get any power and efficiency out of it. Without nearly doubling the engines effective compression it will have about half the power it has on gasoline and horrible fuel economy on a cost per mile comparisons. A normal car engine is just too low of compression and the cam profiles are designed for emissions compliances with gasoline and are way off for hydrogen as well.

To make real hydrogen work requires enough mechanical modifications that the engine will never run on gasoline again. It is simply not dual fuel friendly. Doing it part way will serve no purpose either.

My local power company ran dual fuel hydrogen pickups for a few years as part of practicality study. I even had the chance to ride in one and look over the dual fuel system up close. On hydrogen the pickups couldn't get away from their own dust. They where pathetically underpowered. Also the people who did the study concluded that without extensive engine modifications the cost per mile was worse than gasoline as well.

The people claiming that you can run your vehicle on hydrogen derived from water using your vehicle electrical system to power an electrolysis cell are scam artists.
Its just not possible without an external power source or heavily modified engine.

 

[Tom81]

yeah i'm with tcmtech on this one. good idea in theory, but probably not worth the effort. There's not a lot of evidence to support 'bolt-on' hydrogen systems that introduce hydrogyn into the intake to improve economy. way too many factors to consider. You'd be better off designing a Hydrogen ICE from the ground up like Stan Meyer did...

 

[ben shinkle]

I have his plans and desinges to include th production with pulse width. ive only looked at the system and not the ICE. i will be honest what is ICE stand for. i will have a donor car to use first that is the same set up as my daily driver. did he make his own ignition system from ground up.

 

[Tom81]

ICE - Internal Combustion Engine. This site might give you some ideas: Stan Meyer's Dune Buggy
I'm not even sure he used spark ignition on his car...

Here's another one that might be of interest: YouTube - Who's Killing the Hydrogen Car?

Best to just do lots of research on google and youtube.

 

[joe_rocket]

how about the ignition retard with a 555 timer?
I'm very interested in that, at least the theory of it...

 

[tcmtech]

how about the ignition retard with a 555 timer?
I'm very interested in that, at least the theory of it...

Just use a frequency to voltage converter to bias the timing delay of the 555. The higher the RPM the less delay time is needed in order to keep the ignition delay, as measured in degrees of crankshaft rotation, proportional to the speed of the engine.

 

[joe_rocket]

I looked up a couple examples but none seemed like they would work for an ignition, could you post an example circuit that would be triggered by a tach wire?

 

[shortbus=]

I looked up a couple examples but none seemed like they would work for an ignition, could you post an example circuit that would be triggered by a tach wire?

Just like in your other thread, it is not done with component type electronics. It is done with a computer, comparing a signal to a look-up-table or map. The tables are compiled from 100's of hours of data.

Something like this has to have at least two inputs. 1. The sensor input 2. the reference input. With out those your comparing oranges to apples.

A tachometer out put is just a signal from a sensor, nothing more, nothing less. The opening of the throttle/addition of more air and fuel is what makes a engine go faster. Not the signal/voltage from the tach output.

 

[joe_rocket]

it is not done with component type electronics.

??? what does that mean?

Something like this has to have at least two inputs. 1. The sensor input 2. the reference input. With out those your comparing oranges to apples.

I get what the sensor input it, it's the tach wire, what is the reference input?

A tachometer out put is just a signal from a sensor, nothing more, nothing less.

in it's simplest form power is sent to a coil/transformer, power flows through that coil and to the negative post. that post is grounded either by points or a module charging the coil. when the ground is broken the charge collapses and sends power out the secondary side.

so the tach wire would read 12v (or 14.2) then would show a short to ground and back to 12v cycling at a frequency linear with the engine RPM, correct?

The opening of the throttle/addition of more air and fuel is what makes a engine go faster. Not the signal/voltage from the tach output.
who ever said such a thing? not me... unless you can intercept the wire from the points/module before it reaches the coil and modify it's timing...

 

[eloid]

how about the ignition retard with a 555 timer?
I'm very interested in that, at least the theory of it...

If want to lear more about the above question how to delay timing watch this video

The speaker in the video is Roy McAlister

Roy is President at American Hydrogen Association

Education
University of Kansas

 

[eloid]

Below are some other videos showing Roy McAlister driving a geo which was modified by him, to run multi mixed fuels,
changing the timing for different alternative fuels (hydrogen, gas , trupines) on the car on the fly while driving.


Roy McAlister Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals - Geo Ride 1 of 2

Roy McAlister Hydrogen Fuel - Engine Fundamentals - Geo Ride 2 of 2

 

[DerStrom8]

eloid , you do realize this thread is over 4 years old, don't you?

 

[eloid]

eloid , you do realize this thread is over 4 years old, don't you?

Of coarse, I know that !!!!! ...( just because it old doesn't mean its not relevant any more) My self and other out there are still interested in multi-fuels... no harm sharing knowledge or videos which can disprove disbelievers years ago with info which was not available then.

 

[eloid]

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Pt. 1

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Pt. 2

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Pt. 3

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Pt. 4

 

[DerStrom8]

Of coarse, I know that !!!!! ...( just because it old doesn't mean its not relevant any more) My self and other out there are still interested in multi-fuels... no harm sharing knowledge or videos which can disprove disbelievers years ago with info which was not available then.

Just making sure. People often resurrect old threads without meaning to, and in general it's discouraged to post to an old thread. Your posts are relevant, however, so I don't expect there will be a problem. Just something to keep in mind for the future

Regards,
Matt