Electromechanical circuit to alternate between basement sump pumps

[ADWSystems]

I have to agree they are pretty cool. I'd have to look for a second source before I'd be allowed to include them.

 

[Arsene]

Guys,

Thank you so much for all the ideas, for both diagrams, and for the very unexpected programmable PLR, which is definitively worth taking a look at. One thing that occured to me, based on Ron's description of the multiple types of failure the pump's motor can experience, is to make decisions based on two sensors, instead of just one sensor (the floating switch water level sensor).

Following this line of thinking, the first sensor would be obviously the water level/floating switch, which tells the system it needs to start pumping. The second sensor would go true while water is actively being pumped out of the basement (something like a pipe mounted inline flow gauge, if there is such a thing commercially available). If the signal from the floating switch continues to be true (need for pump to be active) and the signal from sensor # 2 goes false, that would be a pretty safe indication that, (a) water remains in the sump and (b) for whatever reason, the pump that was assigned to do the job at that particular time has stopped doing its job, so the other pump must be brought into action. I supposed this kind of logic could be accomplished with a few AND and/or OR gates, however, I really wanted to accomplish this whole thing using only 110 vac electromechanical means.

Thanks for all your help.

Arsene

 

[ADWSystems]

I know they make inline flow sensors that detect if the line is empty or full rather than water movement (so flow sensor is a misnomer, but that's what they are called). In your case the outflow pipe, or atleast the section the sensor is mounted in, would need to be self draining. Providing the sensor is has a relay output (which the one I'm thinking of has) we can easily design a relay "ladder" circuit to detect the high level in the sump (normally open contact closed) and no flow (normally closed contact closed). I don't recall the model or part number for the flow sensor. I can recall that it was a white box about 2"x3"x4"deep, white with a black adjustment knob, DIN rail mounted, 110VAC powered and dry contact outputs. If we can get past that hurdle, we'll be back in business with a 110VAC only circuit.

 

[Reloadron]

The plot thickens.

Yeah, we seem to be moving away from simple electro mechanical and enter more sophisticated electronics. This is where a PLC or that PLR come into the picture or a uC and program your own. However, this stuff can be fun to toss around so what the hell. OK, at work I use assorted flow sensors and sensors to measure flow. Since you are not interested in flow rate all you would want is a flow switch. I have used this particular line for well over 20 years.

So I command a pump to run then I look for flow. If Pump1On and PumpFlow = True Then.... Else.... PumpShutDown (or do something) and so it begins. However, between PumpOn and PumpFlow you may want a few seconds delay. We begin to apply logic along that used in today's home gas fired furnace heating systems.

Before you know it we have an entire home automation system built.

Ron

 

[Arsene]

Aha! Gems flow switches! Thanks, Ron, intuitively, I knew that was the type of sensor needed to make the circuit take the appropriate action in case of a pump failure, however, I did not know if they actually existed in a commercially available product. So, a simple floating switch to determine water level and an inline flow switch installed in the pump discharge line (plus a timing circuit, as yuu mention) are the two feedback sources the circuit needs to make the appropriate decisions at all times, completely disconnected from the nature of a pump's failure. I already have my whole house setup with an X10 system, and my PC sends the X10 signals around the clock to wake me up, turn lights on and off, etc., as programmed. I wonder if I should consider a connection to this system. I am veering further and further away from my original super simple idea of a self-contained, 110vac electromechanical system to take control of my basement drainage needs.

 

[crutschow]

........................

I am veering further and further away from my original super simple idea of a self-contained, 110vac electromechanical system to take control of my basement drainage needs.

In engineering circles it's call "feature creep".

 

[nsaspook]

In engineering circles it's call "feature creep".

I've never seen that on a product.
https://www.inkpunks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/swiss1.jpg

 

[Reloadron]

In engineering circles it's call "feature creep".

Yeah and sometimes the original design is lost in it.

Projects of this type are pretty cool as they leave so much room for expansion and as we say feature creep. They allow the imagination to work as options are added. Pretty cool really.

Ron

 

[RODALCO]

You could switch between pump 1 and pump 2 with a time switch. and change over contactor ( 12 hours pump 1, 12 hours pump 2 )

For visual ON indication ( I use this at home too for my hotwater system )

Modify an old small TX and use it as a CT. remove the secondary winding. fit one or two turns of mains rated wire and put that in series with the load of the pumps. The old primary winding will be used to drive a LED. fit a small bridge rectifier and a series R and a LED of any color.
When the pump draws current The TX works as a CT and the LED is on.

Optional I would suggest putting an hour meter on each pump to keep an idea on how many hours these pumps run for.

 

[jenifer123]

This is good to know that you want to build a circuit for sum pumps backup. I am using a large scale system and this works good for me. The functionality of both pumps are same, I would like to say you all the best for your efforts.



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[KeepItSimpleStupid]

As what's already been discussed, give this a reed: https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/05/Pumps-Pumping-Market20App-1.pdf

If you are having a capacity problem, then why not use a secondary input which would activate both pumps simultaneously. This actually gives you both capacity and backup a backup pump.

Pump failure might be harder to spot, but if if you sounded an alarm or even latched an indicator when the excess capacity was used, that may be sufficient.

Take a look at what sump pump controllers are out there that might incorporate all of the features you want.

I plan to install one of these: **broken link removed** when I get one of those infamous ROUNDTUIT's. https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/i...D3TK52uygh5qsN68u37umdo6iOAOIHXHz3LdB_te8sHhg

Do remember to test your sump pump at least once per season, maybe more with real water.

My take.

 

[James R]

My solution to this situation was to use two power relays one for each pump and one cross wired relay to alternate the pumps as called for by two floats set at different levels Lead and Lag with a strobe light to indicate when Lag float is in operation. sent a rough drawing of the circuit can send pics if needed.

Hello everyone,

I would like to build a circuit, hopefully using only components that work off the regular household 110vac supply (relays, neon lamps, etc.) , which would do the following:

It would receive its power from a regular household AC outlet, and it, in turn, would power two basement sump pumps, both located in the same sump, submerged at the same depth (unlike the typical low voltage backup pump stacked configuration, which has floating switches at different heights). The circuit should alternate between pumps 1 and 2 as demand arises, thus extending the life of both pumps and also allowing for one of the pumps to act as a backup in case the other pump dies. In addition, a few lamps would provide the following feedback information: Two lamps, one assigned to each pump, would indicate which pump is currently active, whereas a second set of lamps would only turn on (and do so permanently) if either of the two pumps dies, thus indicating which pump needs to be repaired or replaced. A buzzer to provide audio feedback in case a pump dies would probably be a nice addition.

Can this be accomplished with a strictly electro-mechanical circuit that does not include a microprocessor or other electronic components?

Thanks in advance for any help

Arsene

 

[Brevor]

My solution to this situation was to use two power relays one for each pump and one cross wired relay to alternate the pumps as called for by two floats set at different levels Lead and Lag with a strobe light to indicate when Lag float is in operation. sent a rough drawing of the circuit can send pics if needed.

That's a nice idea, however the original poster stopped responding almost 4 years ago so we have no idea how this all worked out.

 

[crutschow]

The newbie necrophiliac of old threads strikes again.

 

[James R]

That's a nice idea, however the original poster stopped responding almost 4 years ago so we have no idea how this all worked out.

Thank You for your reply, I realize that it was an old posting but I figured if not the original poster could benefit form a different approach someone else may. I guess you could say I'm old school to a point and believe for the most part in mechanical hard wire to certain situations over electronic digital control. Don't get me wrong I have worked on digital (DDC) controls for several years invariably the control goes bad and the whole thing has to be replaced.

 

[James R]

Forgot to add again Thank You.

 

[Brevor]

Thanks James, and welcometo the forum.

 

[James R]

Thank You, I join these things but usually just observe.