Ejection system in Civil Aircrafts

[dr.power]

Hi guys,

I know that here is not the right place to ask the below question, but anyway I ask it...

after watching a movie about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_collision

I am wondering why the civil airplanes do not use or are not able to use the EJECTION SYSTEM?
I do not know the reason but it is starnge to me that there is not such a system in the planes even at least for the cockpits (the pilot). when a crash happens the pilot is a good source to explane what did happen. so if there is any technical limitation which avoides having an ejjection sysytem for the passengers to eject in a civil plane (if so whats that?) I think maybe it can be done for the pilot and copilot technically, right? Or I am wrong and it is not possible at all in civil planes? If so whats the reason?

Thanks

 

[KMoffett]

Cost...cost...cost! Small aircraft do not have the power or room to carry 1- or 2- or 4-place ejection seats. This also doesn't work unless you also eject the top of the aircraft before you eject. The realistic alternative are parachutes for small aircraft:https://brsparachutes.com/

Ken

 

[jpanhalt]

Yep, but aircraft parachutes haven't prevented too many deaths recently for Cirrus aircraft. Parachutes don't help when you run into the ground or are too low.

As for small, non-pressurized aircraft, door pins/hinges are available that just pop open and the door leaves the airplane. In theory one could climb out. In practice, it is much harder.

John

 

[Gobbledok]

I don't think I would like to travel on an airliner where the pilot/copilot have ejection seats and I don't. If I'm going down then they can wrestle the plane all the way to the ground

 

[jpanhalt]

There is a fundamental difference between what causes military crashes and what causes civilian aircraft crashes. A parachute, as in WWII, or ejection seat can help the crew of a military aircraft that is disabled in flight.

In contrast, civilian aircraft are rarely disabled in flight. They have in-flight collisions or hit the ground (e.g., stall-spin at low altitude). Neither scenario allows survival with a parachute. Additionally, for light aircraft, running out of fuel is another big contributor, but in that situation, I would take my chances with an off-field landing rather than parachuting.

John

 

[Boncuk]

After a mid air collision there is little - if any chance - for a successful bailout.

Concerning civil aviation just consider an aircraft being a ship. The ship commander is the last to leave the ship when it's sinking.

Ejection systems are installed on military combat jets - no transport planes do carry ejection seats. The system has to provide emergency oxygen supply until air density allows free breathing.

Ejecting from an airliner at an average cruising altitude of 35,000 to 40,000 feet without oxygen and temperature compensating clothing is as deadly as crashing into the ground. (Temperature at this altitude is -52deg/C.)

Ejection systems are only helpful if you see a ground-to-air missile (or air-to-air missile) approaching. Ejection must be initiated before the missile distributes its 25,000 shrapnels which in most cases make the target explode being hit by red hot metal pieces. (even if there are just about 100 pieces to hit). Missile destruction is initiated by a proximity fuse firing the war head at a distance of 25ft from the target.

Modern ejection systems have zero-zero capabilty, meaning a bailout will be successful at zero speed and zero altitude catapulting the crew to a save altitude (80 to 100ft) allowing the parachute to deploy and initiate man-seat separation.

It would be fatal to successfully land with a parachute and be slain by the heavy seat collapsing around the pilot.

There are light weight aircraft which are fitted with a complete rescue system, taking down the entire aircraft and the crew safely.

The system didn't help my friend in a mid air collision. He died on the spot.

Boncuk

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Modern ejection systems have zero-zero capabilty, meaning a bailout will be successful at zero speed and zero altitude catapulting the crew to a save altitude (80 to 100ft) allowing the parachute to deploy and initiate man-seat separation.

I presume it made the news all round the world?, but last year a member of the Red Arrows display team was killed.

His ejection seat randomly fired whilst on the ground - and while the 'safe height' is a nice idea, the parachute didn't deploy and he was killed in the fall for that height.

All aircraft using that ejector seat mechanism were grounded for tests, but no faults were found.

 

[PatM]

I have seen something in the paper where a civilian aircraft had a parachute attached, that lowered the entire plane, not just the occupants.
Sounds like a good idea for a small plane.

 

[ericgibbs]

Other improvements included a SAAB FH5 autopilot replacing the license-built Lear unit; an improved SAAB S7A FCS with Ericsson PS-03 radar; and a new SAAB 73SE-F rocket-boosted ejection seat, which could operate from zero altitude but required a minimum forward speed of 100 KPH (62 MPH) for safe ejection. The J 35D was later updated with the SAAB RS35 ejection seat, which was a true "zero-zero" device that could get the pilot out safely even if the aircraft was sitting on the runway. All later Drakens would feature this zero-zero seat.

https://www.vectorsite.net/avj35.html

 

[JimB]

Apart from the total impracticality of installing 100+ ejector seats in an ordinary civil airliner, what about something like a Boeng 747 or an Airbus A380 where there are two deck levels.
How are we to eject the passengers from the lower deck, through the bottom or out of the side?

Who is going to push the button to do the eject, the captain or the individual passenger.

If only the flight deck crew have ejection seats, consider the A319 flown by Captain Sullenberger, the guy who did the impossible by safely landing on the Hudson river after a birdstrike took out both engines.

How different it would have been if he had ejected instead of successfully performing the impossible on-water landing.

Assuming that we do get to the point of ejection seats in a civil airliner, how many passengers will want to sit tightly strapped in with a six-point harness.
It is bad enough getting some people to sit down and buckle up ready for a normal landing or a bit of turbulence in flight.

All in all, it is never going to happen.

JimB

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

All in all, it is never going to happen.

No, it's a pretty stupid idea!

 

[dr.power]

You guys can download the crash I talked abiut in my first post, then you'll find out that having a system for saving the passengers out of such a broken plane (the left wing was broken and the plane started diving and rolling by its noise) is much bettwer than having NOthing.

As mentioned here I have seen a plane having a parachute for the whole plane in TV, it is a good idea too.
having a parachute for each seat is another idea. Are you thinking that in 4km of altitude height (which the planes were in)breathing is impossible?

 

[jpanhalt]

The Cirrus is an airplane with such a system (see previous post). Find one example in which it saved the occupants compared to the several recent incidents in which it didn't. Theory is one thing, practice is another.

John

 

[dr.power]

The Cirrus is an airplane with such a system (see previous post). Find one example in which it saved the occupants compared to the several recent incidents in which it didn't. Theory is one thing, practice is another.

John

Is there anything like that used in civil aircraft so that we could see the result? isn't it better than nothing for a plane losing one wing? I think it can automatically works in a safe altitude height.

 

[jpanhalt]

Is there anything like that used in civil aircraft so that we could see the result?

The Cirrus is a civilian aircraft. Look it up. I am not aware that losing a wing is a common failure mode for for civilian aircraft. Do you have any basis for that assumption?

John

 

[KMoffett]

Is there anything like that used in civil aircraft so that we could see the result? isn't it better than nothing for a plane losing one wing? I think it can automatically works in a safe altitude height.

See Post #2.

Most of the Cirrus accidents appear to be pilots with a lot of money, big egos, and little or no experience in high performance, small aircraft.

Ken

 

[KMoffett]

https://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2012/120111-cirrus-chutes-to-safety-off-bahamas-with-none-hurt.html?WT.mc_id=120113epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan

Ken

 

[jpanhalt]

Nice article, but an engine failure in a single-engine aircraft does not require a parachute for a safe landing on water. Heck, even twin-engine airliners can make safe water landings with a good pilot.

Some details in the article don't make sense or are describes a bit unclearly. As I read it, he deployed the ballistic parachute at 2300 feet AGL and was 2 miles short of land. The glide ratio of the Cirrus SR22 is listed as 9.6 to 1. Thus, he could have been able to glide approx 22,000 feet or roughly 4 miles from the altitude at which he deployed the 'chute. I would probably have ridden it out in daylight.

The article does make a nice comment about pilots deploying the 'chute improperly and not helping themselves or their passengers by such errors.

John

 

[audioguru]

The program on TV called "Mayday" showed that the jet that glided then landed successfully in the Hudson river was flown by its computer. The pilot simply steered it. The computer made the perfect landing and the pilot probably would have stalled it and/or broke it followed by rapid sinking into the water.

The TV show also reported on the causes of the two jets collision in India. It could have been avoided if the airport in India used a modern air traffic control system that shows air traffic controllers the actual altitude of airplanes. The airport already had the modern system for months but it wasn't unpacked and installed. The airport had a few more close mid-air misses until the modern system was installed.

The Russian jet was a military bomber converted into a commercial airliner. It used a single mal-fuctioning altimeter instead of two for a backup on modern airliners. It used a "radio man" who did not tell everything important to the pilot from instructions from the air traffic controller.

 

[Electroenthusiast]

Not all the (None infact) have door next to their seat. To use that system, there is a requirement of Door/something similar.

BTW, which was that wonderful documentary/movie?