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Digital voltmeter error

el34man

New Member
I have constructed a metering circuit (pic attached) using one-half of an LM358 as a DC x100 op-amp. The dc output (pin 1) connects directly to a 3-digit voltmeter (1/3rd inch self-type). The source of the voltage to be measured is the cathode of a power-pentode audio-output tube.

The cathode connects to chassis gnd via a 1 ohm resistor, so for example 40 milliamps of tube current produces 40 millivolts across the resistor, is amplified to 4.00 volts (.04 x 100=4.00V) by the Vc to be read as 40 milliamps on the display (the third digit and decimal point are hidden from view).

The circuit works well except the display is not very linear, tending to under-read at the low and high ends of the range. The intended range is 30mA to 99mA. In practice the readings are only accurate between 40mV and 70mV. Below this,
30mV displayed is more near 20mA and 80mV displayed is more like 95mA.

To ensure sufficient output swing I increased the IC vcc from +12v to +20V which improved the linearity,
but only partially. The LM358 is capable of sinking output current but I'm wondering if the connected self-powered voltmeter is drawing too much current, as it has to light its 3 x 7-segment leds alone.

I am going to try splicing in the unused other half of the IC as a voltage follower, but would appreciate any comments as to what other issues may be affecting this design.

Note that the meter, being the type that obtains its operating voltage from the potential being measured. does not illuminate below 3.0V but that is not an issue in this case. The required range is 35 to 99 i.e. 3.5V to 9.9V true. (Sorry if this conversion from mV to volts and then red as mV is confusing, but remember only the first two digits are needed for display).

Many thanks in advance.

Gaz
 

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I'm wondering if the connected self-powered voltmeter is drawing too much current
Note that the meter, being the type that obtains its operating voltage from the potential being measured.
There could be your main problem.

Try using a voltmeter which is powered from a separate source rather than the signal which it is measuring.

JimB
 
The feedback resistors are incorrect for a non-inverting gain of 100. Also, while the input common mode voltage range of the LM358 extends below its negative rail (GND in your case), the output voltage range does not. This could be one source of the output voltage errors. The datasheet has information on the output voltage range.

ak
 
You could add an NPN transistor as an emitter follower to increase the output current:

Connect the base directly to the opamp output, with the emitter connected to the meter and feedback resistor, then collector to V+

That would take the load away from the opamp and also get its output in to a better working range.

Ideally for a circuit such as that which needs precision, you should use an opamp with offset null pins, so you can adjust the zero. The The 358 can have 2mV input offset, for a TI made one, possibly more with other makes.
 
You said:
“Note that the meter, being the type that obtains its operating voltage from the potential being measured.”

Can you provide the meter’s brand and model number ?
I have never seen one like that.
 
You said:
“Note that the meter, being the type that obtains its operating voltage from the potential being measured.”

Can you provide the meter’s brand and model number ?
I have never seen one like that.
It's not a multimeter, it's just a simple battery voltage measuring meter - you clip it across your battery and it displays the voltage (within certain limits), as it's powered from it's input.

He's using completely the wrong device for what he's wanting to do.
 
Thanks all for your replies and guidance. Analog Kid, the IK5 value was found to bring the gain value to 100 when the 2k preset was centered in its range (this is where 40mV idling current is correctly displayed).

Here are the present inaccuracies:
27mV = 3v6
40mV = 4vO
54mV = 4v4
65mV = 4v7
77mV = 5v0
90mV = 5v4

Note that these readings are with the 2-lead voltmeter DISconnected, so its not the source of the problem.

I will have a look at raising the negative 358 pin above ground as suggested. Also RJW, I could use the unused other half of the 358 as a unity gain buffer.

Will report back soon guys
 
the IK5 value was found to bring the gain value to 100 when the 2k preset was centered in its range
You have a significant offset and low gain.

If the gain was correct, the error would be constant but the reading off by some amount.

40mV = 4V0 and 90mV = 5V4 works out to a gain of 28
 
Analog Kid, the IK5 value was found to bring the gain value to 100 when the 2k preset was centered in its range (this is where 40mV idling current is correctly displayed).

Something is not correct.

With a series feedback resistor of 100K and a shunt feedback resistance of (1.5K + (2K / 2)) = 2.5K, the DC gain of a single opamp non-inverting amplifier stage will be 41, or 32.25 dB.

Also, I'm not sure what "40 mV idling current" means.

For a voltage gain of 100 and a 100K series feedback resistor, the ideal shunt resistance is 1010 ohms.

ak
 
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I spent some time doing spice simulations, and the models dont seem to reflect the
output behaviour at low V's properly. The suggestion to use a 10 K output load do
help, but still dont drive the output to 0V at Vin = 0 V. As you can see from the apnote
results.

If you want output to go to 0 then you will have to use a RRIO OpAmp. Or a design
with a negative supply for the OpAmp,

1690626841102.png



Regards, Dana.
 
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What happens if you add the emitter follower I suggested as a possibility? (post #5)
Maybe. The output low voltage is not characterized in the tables for a 20 V rail. The "Output Characteristics" chart for the "Current Sinking" condition indicates that the headroom is around 0.7 V, but the chart is not crystal clear and we don't know the tolerance band around that value. I think that is close enough to a typical Vbe to give it a try.

ak
 
Look on the face of the volt meter. It likely shows the dc impedence (as a resistance) and you can just calculate what the true voltage would be with a, say, 10k parallel resistance would be from the volt meter. Assuming it is a simple moving coil design. Who knows how a cheap DVm powered by the circuit would behave.
 
Note if you only care about 30 mV to 90mV range than emitter follower not needed unless
your D'Arsonval movement needs a lot of current. Spec loads seem to vary on I out between
manufacturers but 10 mA minimum seems to be common spec.

1690715257574.png


What was the model and name of meter you used to do the mV readings in your error table ?
The above sim I think is accurate for stated conditions. Also post a pic of your prototype, what
is tolerance of your R's used ?

Lastly note the Voffset of the older non A version of LM358 is ~ 9 mV max. So sim shows -9 mV, 0 mV,
and +9 mV of offset, as you can see you need an opamp with much lower offset. Or add offset trim
pot. https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-037.pdf

Lastly Lastly unused opamp considerations in package, page 27-28 in https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sloa277b/sloa277b.pdf?ts=1690382160884


Regards, Dana.
 
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