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12v bicycle trailer sound system details

Discussion in 'Automotive Electronics' started by budget minded, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Wait... what?o_O

    You deleted your own stuff then he claims it wasn't you? HUH? :wideyed:


    As you have probably already seen, he throws a fit and you're a troll for not agreeing with his logic and reasoning.

    Yea. I have yet to ever seen any dance to some bike mounted sound system. Especially to his choices of music. :oops:
     
  2. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I agree with you that RAP is not music. It is simply a black man reading a book in a nasal monotone (with a beat in the background).
    Your 15" woofers are too big for the fairly small sealed enclosures. It causes the resonance frequency to be too high then attenuation of lower frequencies that you want. An 8" woofer would produce deep bass in that size of enclosure.
    I liked watching the "jumping" video but I turned down the sound.
     
  3. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    well, not everyone likes "funky music", even DJs these days.

    as to resonant frequencies, i would think that shouldn't be an issue with the setup i'm planning as the system Q will be the ideal .7. that is the PERFECT box size for that particular woofer. i have seen resonance create serious issues in frequency curves with higher Qs over 1.0.
    eg.
    [​IMG]
    with an extra high Q of 2.0 and a big resonance peak at 70Hz for this 12" in the 2x12 @ 1.2 cubic feet each boxes i wanted to use with the higher efficiency lower VAS goldwoods i'm planning on in the final build, but the curve for the 15" combo i'm planning, in a previous reply, looks to be textbook smooth and pretty close to the one i calculated for the $70 goldwood 12s i eventually wanted to use.

    this is a much nicer curve, and you can't beat a system Q of .7.
    [​IMG]

    any better sounding solution is going to cost more $$$. $22 for a 15" with rubber surrounds and that perfectly mates with the nice 3/4" box i can get for just $42 is as good as bargains get. i was just looking at a CRAPPY little 12" wedge box with laughable
    [​IMG]
    push pin speaker connectors "best buy" wanted $60 for today.

    i agree, 8 inch woofers are awesome for speed and detail, but they just don't move enough air unless you have expensive competition grade units and an amp with a few thousand watts. i already have a pair of 8s in the DJ speakers i'll be using as mains, and their bass is truly anemic.

    i'm also trying to outdo a local bike that has 2 x 12s in huge ported tubes here if i'm to create my own riding/dance party crowd against his years' worth of networking. i've already lost a head to head battle against a trailer system with my little saddlebag one that couldn't even be heard outside a nightclub. if loudbike shows up at an event, he's not going to be drowning me out into submission. i should have both an SQ & SPL advantage when i get rolling.

    he has 2x12s @ 93dB each on 100wpc, but i'll have close to the same surface area at 92dB with theoretically at least twice the power, and more amps to back everything up, plus, i STILL say mounting his speakers with opposing ports causes backwave phase cancellations, but it's still a very respectable sounding rig. the best i've heard in person by far. i should have a clear SPL advantage when i go 4x12, and my system will be bi-amped and not passive, except for my 2 ways which are 96dBw vs the 93dB limits of his pyle woofers.

    [​IMG]

    the 15" system is just intended as a cheap quick fix. i'm not a fan of large woofers, but for that bottom octave in dance music, you have to abide by physics and move air. i know i'm compromising SQ for SPL here, but "bass is the name of the game" to quote a magic mike CD title when it comes to dance music. that's probably one of the reasons i hate trying to dance with headphones. i want a bike system that can do at least a fair job of hitting the infrasonics in woofer cooker, the "gold standard" in bass demo tracks.



    i can JUST BARELY hear the infrasonic tone on headphones, but get nothing on my 8" ported proels, even with 12dB of boost at 70Hz.

    on a more practical level, i really need to move air for this "essential", at least to me, jam, funky stuff by kool & the gang

    there's infrasonics in it i can just barely hear on headphones, with bass boost too at that. i want my bike system to be able to project that subterranian *wrrrowrrr wrrrowrrr* with as much authority a practically possible.

    if this was a home system, i'd be more than happy with 8 inch woofers, but i'm looking to do some woofer cooking and get the ladies to "feel it". that, and outdoors is the biggest challenge for bass, especially as i won't be pointing my sub down as close to the ground as possible for re-enforcement, i want to show it off. i can't afford the watts to REALLY "hit hard", so i'm doing what i can with efficiency and displacement and dealing with the SQ consequences. it could have been worse, i considered cheap 15", even 18" ported DJ subs for maximum boom, but sinking to bass reflex is too low, even for me.

    another issue with 8 inch woofers is boxes are REALLY SCARCE! sonic electronix USED TO HAVE nice 2 x 8 boxes i wanted to get 8 of for a hifi "sweet 16" PA system. a woofer is useless if you can't box it up. i don't have the tools to build my own, and even if i did, it'd be a challenge one handed.

    i'm listening to my proels again, and short of their bass limitations, they sound really smooth & relaxed compared to a portable cheap little one speaker a/c system someone was playing in the park behind me i walked by today that had really spitty, probably piezo, treble. portable PA systems are really popular here for park parties.

    that little consumer grade system, and probably not the bike either, could handle the treble of

    which i'm listening to right now on crisp & clear but effortless too celestion titanium waveguides. all they need is some bass enhancement for a pretty decent sounding system.

    oh yeah... i never mentioned my source... i have a nice enough sounding xduoo x2 media player that does full fidelity WAVs.
    [​IMG]
    besides the reviews giving it a thumbs up for best SQ in the $50 range (clearly much better sounding than my PC soundcard) i loved the simple aesthetics that look more like a stereo component, dedicated buttons with silver bevels vs those annoying plastic "unibuttons" on most players and the aluminum case is a nice touch too. eventually, it will get mounted on my handlebars for thumb control. it has a TERRIBLE display though. you can't see anything in daylight. that's OK though, i'll mostly be riding after sunset.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
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  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The single 5" woofer on my computer sound system played your music pretty well but it caused doubling sometimes. Some of your videos say "This video is not available" from You Tube.
     
  6. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    that's a shame. you must not be in the US then. sometimes i can't watch videos people in other countries suggest too.

    there's no doubt that with a GOOD high excursion 8 inch woofer, some bass boost, and a powerful amp that you CAN hit 30Hz or even lower, but again, it still won't move a fraction of the air that a 15" can do. that equates to people hearing the bass at a distance when downtown on a club night, at an event, or at a tailgate party. i don't expect anyone will actually FEEL the bass churning their lunch, even up close, but my bass will have at least SOME authority to it.

    you almost can never have enough bass for dance music. i've been in megawatt clubs where i can feel the bass rattling my clothes 50 feet from a speaker. that's the experience i'm trying my best to bring to cycling. and especially, embarrassing as many cars and trucks as possible. an 8 inch is never going to embarrass a pair of 10s or larger.

    heck, with those mission bookshelf speakers i had, i got enough bass out of the probably 10 real watts per channel that my little sonic impact put out that i could feel it through my bike frame, but it was pointless as 100 feet from a club door, i couldn't hear anything, just like i couldn't hear anything right on my bike when the jealous "cycling club MC" in another state turned his 12", i think, subbed system on at the end of the driveway. riding by a crap dance club, playing BETTER dance beats, at volumes that can be heard will be my friday/saturday night MO. you can't bring a boombox to THAT battle.

    there WILL be jealous fools out there seeking to drown me out for any number of reasons... i'm not playing gangsta, so i'm not cool enough, thou shalt not make my 4 wheel drive tiny family jewels compensation look inferior, you're not playing heavy metal so turn that "N" music off and so on. i'm bringing a
    [​IMG]
    to a knife fight, so to speak.

    this system will serve as my mating call. potential mates have to hear you to be drawn to inspect the proverbial nest. others might show off with expensive cars & fancy clothing, leather and spikes, acting gangsta, wearing skull teeshirts and blasting devil music and so on. i will appeal to womens' love of the dance that ISN'T fueled by "who cares if the women dance?" testosterone. that's my style, and if clubs aren't down with it, i have to create my own scene.

    why you too gotta hate?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  7. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    So it's okay for you to hate them and not you yourself be hated for playing what many find to be obnoxious annoying music in public?

    Biased much? :troll:

    Of what I have seen and read of your music and posts I would be confident to say that given the who's who of annoying POS people in pubic you would be the one I would first slap right off his wee bike for disturbing the peice. :rolleyes:
     
  8. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    If you want to shake (break?) your bones and smash a concrete sidewalk then you need this subwoofer:
     

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  9. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    nah... that puny thing? why not THIS?

    [​IMG]

    when i get to the "final system", 4 x 12" (maybe even 8 x 12" if i'm doing fiberglass) will be more than enough. even in the short term, a single 15" is more than a lot of systems have and way more than i'll need for cruising, but enough for when i'll really be needing it to get people dancing which just isn't the same without some chunky bass.

    i have to balance a lot of things. right now, money is the top priority in EVERY decision i make. power, efficiency, output, weight & how easy it is to build the system all count too. like i said, i can't think of any way to move more air than the roughly $60, not counting shipping, i'll be putting into the 1.9 cubic foot 15" other than to find a beat up overpriced ported box at a pawn shop. i'll be trading some SQ for SPL and bargain pricing. otherwise, i'd get a 2x12 box and own half of my final system.

    as rare as 15s are on the used market here, going the route i'm taking should make getting rid of the sub, which should look like new when i'm done with it, a little easier.

    one other plus with going with a 15" is a lot of people are impressed by bigger woofers. aesthetics are a consideration too.

    if you think i'm going over the top, then get a load of this system...

    i'd hate to have to make an emergency turn with that system (or try to ride it on anything less than a 4 lane highway)

    along similar lines to the NEW jackhammer, i wouldn't mind owning a Dayton Audio UM12-22, or 4 (ugh! every source freakin' share blocks images!!!)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    that's one sexy high excursion driver
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
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  10. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    for what it's worth, the bike i'll be hauling everything with will be a sun EZ1 recumbent (all day long comfort) pretty much like this

    [​IMG]

    an added bonus to using a 20 inch rear wheel recumbent is that the 20" trailer behind it will be almost level, and unlike if i used a 26" mountain bike, the trailer will tilt forward slightly instead of backwards a lot which just looks wrong. my EZ1 has seriously weathered paint, but it's a darker cobalt (vicks bottle) blue than this royal blue one, but by next year, i'd like to tear it down and undo the backwards right brake controls the front wheel cabling and get it painted metallic purple, or get another lighter version with an aluminum frame, handlebars and maybe seat-back too vs entry level chromoly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  11. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The Dayton 12" subwoofer is not sensitive. At its max 600W it will not rattle your bones unless you have 4 or more of them close to you. Also its recommended enclosure is larger than you are planning to make.
     
  12. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    AND... it's so heavy. i'd get a hernia hauling 4 of them up a 1% grade, BUT, they're still sexy if you can muster enough power to get them moving. if i were building an "ultimate show grade" trailer with li-poly batteries and carbon fiber lined with fiberglass, i'd use 4 of those any day just for the eye candy. i love woofers that don't have logos and that have inverted, or better yet, no dustcaps. that the woofers look like carbon fiber just adds to their "big league" looks compared to the fugly exposed cardboard outer gaskets on the generic woofer i'll be using. most people probably don't care that much, but my artist's eye just prefers the look of cast baskets vs. cardboard gaskets.

    see? i'm rapping again just to annoy you. LOL

    back to 8 inch woofers, i once mocked up an "ultimate trailer" a few years ago that would have 4 x dayton 8" discontinued reference (with the phase plugs) woofers pointing up and a forwards facing mini video screen all mounted in a woodgrain laminated box clear lacquered medium green. i thought i had a pic of that online, but couldn't find it.

    for what it's worth, THIS is SOMETHING what they looked like (i think that's a smaller sibling)... EXTRA SEXY!!!
    [​IMG]
    there should be a law that anyone who posts something online then share blocks it should be castrated with a rusty butter knife

    to me, even BETTER than 8 inch woofers, if i didn't say it already, i LOVE the lightning fast zero box coloration sound of magnepan bass even if it's rolled off. the speed, detail, lack of coloration and overall "you are there" sound humbles any cone woofer i've ever heard. i doubt even an isobaric system could keep up with a virtually weightless huge surface area of planars in any way save for bottom octave bass heavy weight. it's just too bad maggies are so inefficient. they're super light, and i HAVE imagined using both MMGs and soon to be extinct bohlender graebner drivers in portable systems.

    to my ears, a "humble" $1200 pair of maggie MG12s give $20k B&W 800s on another $20k+ in mcintosh front end a run for their money in everything but image specificity and top octave extension when mated with the right electronics. even though they're *gasp* ported, i would't turn down a pair of 800s though. all they need are a few rags to stuff in their ports to "fix them".

    [​IMG]

    UPDATE:
    i did some more shopping around, looking for deep cycle batteries, and found these high rated mighty max 12v 18ah ones that ship for $35. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...3_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=H9P353H161ZA522G4X4V
    they'll be a little more expensive than the batteries i considered previously, but the upside is that i can order just 1 to start with and get free shipping, then add another 2 or 3 later when i have the money to bi-amp.

    as i don't know when i'll be able to afford a li-poly upgrade (top of the line panasonic packs), stretching my budget just a bit for deep cycle batteries will be a better long term investment, as well as an easy re-sale down the road when i upgrade. i REALLY want to get rolling, and might be able to as soon as these ship without checking my finances after paying $100 in electric.

    my bike was out of commission several months because at the end of the day, i'm just too tired to go get a replacement tube to fix the front wheel i already tried to patch but still leaks after a nipple blew it on the inside and like to sleep in on saturdays with lousy bus schedules on sunday. hopefully, the new EXTRA HEAVY puncture resistant tube will do a good job of ignoring thorns as well as the cheesy "rim tape" that allowed the spoke nipple to blow my front tire out when i went from 80 to 100 psi. i made my own secondary liner out of a scrap 26" tube and the new tubes are twice as thick on the inside as a regular tube as well as 3x or more thick on the outside.

    i'd like to show up on one of the weekly group rides with a functional system while it's still warm enough to ride after sunset, even if i only have my proels and bass boost.

    for what it's worth, i'm listening to a "cruising mix" i made on them right now, and this is playing:

    i was already familiar with the less interesting rap version of it from UK imported electro compilations in the early 80s and almost lost my mind when i stumbled across a used copy of the 12" with an instrumental b-side for about $3 in a record store. it's an awesome instrumental by my standards anyways.

    i was the ONLY person in the world to post a video of this and almost 350 other overlooked beats about 8 years ago, before that video existed, until a troll from hell decided he didn't like my taste in music and had the ENTIRE (almost entirely instrumentals and mostly UPBEAT at that) channel taken down for "violating community standards" i was powerless to challenge.

    try and make the world a better place, and haters come out of the woodwork like so many cockroaches.

    back to tunes... this is another awesome cruising beat i'm listening to right now that i lost my mind upon hearing for the first time as well as being blown away by the extra sexy video after scouring a mostly suck "best techno (or dance) songs" top 100 list:

    as latin as where i'm living is at the moment, i haven't heard this, or any other funky latin fare, but a whole lot of freakin' gangsta and hillbilly banda

    aw crap! i was going to share what i THOUGHT was the instrumental to giant panda's "say that then", but linked to some crappy WTF ever possible techno remake unworthy of sharing. that was what i was listening to at the moment and wanted to share it because of the 5 video limit, but will have to share this instead as it was the next (EASY LISTENING) song in my cruising beats mix:


    if that's too lightweight for you... this easy listening track has some spice:

    that should be somewhere in my cruising mix too i think

    ah yes... it's after a very hawaiian sounding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeA_fb1bnv8 which goes really well with bikini lounge and is followed by what i consider to be the "ultimate feel good track ever" it totally knocked me out when i stumbled across the CD at a local library and checked it out out of curiosity


    there... i used up all 5 of my video links. if you're curious over what tangeant the mix takes after that, salvador by hexastatic is what's next https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1SLN3LpDiA the video is kind of trippy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  13. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    i haven't checked my account balance yet, but i've been shopping for right angle cables, and power distribution blocks. i wish i could find an 8 foot 3.5mm right angle male to a straight 3.5mm female cable, but most are male to male, 6 or 10 feet, and either both angled, or both straight. i actually need 7 feet and would have used the extra foot as slack to my trailer hitch. i found a nice "high end" 10 foot cable i liked for $8, but the seller wanted another $6 to ship it, so i put just under $4 down on this clunky 10 foot cable that will get the job done in the short term. i'll have to get velcro or something to tie it to my bike when not in use.
    [​IMG]

    and i bought a pair of these distribution blocks so i can run up to 4 batteries
    [​IMG]

    i have to read my owner's manual to see what amperage i should fuse everything, then see if i can get a circuit breaker that rating to do double duty as an on/off switch. i also have to research what size and type connectors i'm going to be needing for the batteries and buy a 3.5mm female to RCA stereo males cable as well as a pair of RCA female to 2 males Y cables for the mains (front) and sub (rear) channels. i'll get all of my cable custom cut up the street. the shop where i'll be getting my boxes from has decent prices on cables and i like the transparent blue/charcoal color scheme that'll match the power distribution blocks.

    i'll start with 1 battery and a cheap charger. my income should finally be going up soon after i get a physical and then i can start upgrading everything.

    i just had an idea on how to really make the phase 1 cobbled system look better... if i build a white nylon outer shell, i can build an inner one with color changing LEDs projecting on it from the inside. i did a test with a low quality battery powered chrismas light that only did RGB by poking the LEDs through cardboard and projecting on translucent plastic. even with the hideous RGB colors, the slightly random angles of the LEDs created overlap and oranges and purples. i found a site where i can get color changing LEDs dirt cheap and can turn hiding my cobbled system into a semi-acoustically transparent light show. i originally considered cotton, but it would get dirty quick and look terrible where nylon can be sponge cleaned. i'll have to build another circuit for everything, but even with a few hundred bulbs, and a lot of time smelling solder, the 12v 54-72aH system will be able to handle it AND it will negate the need for any bike lights as there'll always be a few reds in back and a full spectrum up front. THAT will be my system's signature instead of installing a "heavy" inverter/disco projectors on a tower setup. the trailer itself will be its own light show, and i might even add EL wire to the mix later too.

    i had a flash of inspiration this morning on the way to work.

    hmmm... i think i've found my power meter...
    [​IMG]
    i like the looks of that and it looks like i can measure energy consumption too. it looks better than the cheaper voltage only "LED alarm clocks" to me and it's well reviewed. i'll just have to figure out how i'm going to mount it. i'd like it mounted on the handlebars, but that's not practical, or probably safe. i'm thinking centered under the trailer in front with the circuit breaker next to it. all these little detail$ add up fast.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  14. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    OK... according to the owner's manual, my amp has 2 x 25 amp fuses, so i should look for a 50 amp circuit breaker, right?

    UPDATE:
    i just splurged on a battery and am trying to figure out what charger to get to start with. i'm looking at a really basic $13 @ 1.2 amp charger that has no negative reviews yet, except 1 broken terminal which isn't as bad as boiling or draining a battery.

    the system's battery configuration is set... 1-4 mighty max 12v 18aH deep cycle AGM batteries that i can mount horizontally. i'll end up paying $20 for a full compliment, but can get these at just over half the price of the 35aH NOT deep cycle batteries i originally considered to get rolling as soon as i figure out a charger, build the trailer, get wire & connectors, and a probably a cheap home power switch to start until i get a circuit breaker.
    [​IMG]
    $35 each delivered https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...3_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=H9P353H161ZA522G4X4V

    the system is VERY close to rolling now. i think it's time to tear the canvas off my trailer.it isn't removable, unless there's frame sections that are hidden under the fabric. such a waste... i only used it 2 times. and by the second, 4 12 packs of soda and a bag of litter at 20 pounds under the trailer's weight rating tore a seam.

    UPDATE:
    i am learning to DESPISE this trailer! after struggling with a single recessed low profile bolt i couldn't get a vice grips to lock onto so i could unscrew a bolt tying the canvas to the fram for probably an hour, i finally got THAT off. all that remained was to unbolt the roll bars and the canvas could go with them. i was able to separate the canvas from the frame by taking the straps out of both ends of the virtually impossible to undo one handed quick releases. that was a struggle too.

    anyways, i get the vice grips locked on the large rollbar nut easy enough and try to unscrew them... NOT EFFING HAPPENING! no amount of twisting would get it to unscrew and without the vice grips, the bolts spin freely. so... FORTUNATELY there's a big enough gap that i can get a hacksaw to do the job while it keeps bumping into and snagging on the canvas. *POP* there goes bolt #1 of 4. (i'm going to have to remove the "tow bar" to get to one of them)

    so i go around to the next bolt, and bump into a god 5 pounds or more piece of MDF i had leaning against a box to make a cat cubby and it falls right on top of my foot. i don't think i've ever yelled "mothereffer" louder in my life. now, seeing i'm not going to be able to restore the canvas without buying a set of 4 bolts and trying to remember the complicated straps issue and have been fighting with thing for 2 hours where i EASILY tore my instep down in just 1/2 hour with it's canvas ready to bolt right back on, after one of its side seams tore the second time i used it hauling 20 pounds under its weight rating, let's just say i'm not in a happy camper mood with my absolutely useless, in between applications, barely used $200 pain in the exit.

    so, as it was challenging to cut the first bolt with the aluminum frame wobbling, i tried standing inside it planning on grabbing the rollbar with my legs and *SNAP*... there goes, apparently, my ONLY hacksaw blade! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!

    oh, i forgot to mention... the wheel releases have to be pulled while the owner pulls the wheel off with his second hand this effing one doesn't have! had to take the wheels off to get to those pain in the butt nuts hiding under the release levers and have a flat tire anyways, but it is going to be a MAJOR PAIN to change flats in the future once i have a bunch of stuff bolted to it! i'm going to have to make some kind of belt that i can hook onto a wheel's spokes and pull it off with my butt while i'm pulling the release.

    oh i'm really starting to hate this trailer! as wonky and heavy as my instep trailer was, it didn't fight me at every corner. the canvas came off easily. all it took to take a wheel off was to pull a spring clip over the end of a lock-pin and pull it out. it was just slightly trickier to pull the retainer spring back over it, but just a matter of getting enough leverage really and nothing more.

    oh... and the entire frame was square so it was easy to build a flatbed on top of it. this one's front and back crossbeams dip down and there's nothing really to bolt a flatbed etc. down to unless it's under the frame to those annoying rollbar mounts.

    all this hassle and expense, just to get a 28"+ axle width for 2 x 14" wide 2x12 boxes. there will be no more progress tonight.

    UPDATE:
    well, i found my ILLUMINATED 12v 20a rated power switch at MCM. i might just order my sub there early
    [​IMG]
    not shabby for $1.39. i like the looks of the 10 cents cheaper blue illuminated round rocker switch even more, but it'd be harder to mount in wood and it's only rated to 16a. it's too bad you can't buy 70a+ switches like this. it'll get recycled as my light system power switch when i get more batteries.

    UPDATE:
    i finally finished sawing through the 3 remaining chromoly frame bolts. it took another 2 blades to do it after the second blade went dull on the 3rd bolt, but the frame is off and i've measured the dimensions i have to work with so i can start planning everything out. i'm probably going to lay the mains on their sides pointing out to the sides, drop the sub a few inches and face ot forwards to maintain a low profile and allow clearance for the LED light frame inside the shell. outside of the frame, there's enough width for 2 x 14" wide sub boxes, but the inside is cramped because of the rollbar mounts protruding inwards.i also plan to drop the batteries below the frame too for a nice low center of gravity, and hang them off the back of the frame to improve front to back balance as the wheels are mounted all the way to the back of the frame.

    i also bought a cheap home light switch and cover for temporary use.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  15. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    OK... now that i already have pretty much EVERYTHING i need to get rolling right now except a trailer bed, a charger and wiring, i'm ready to buy my sub. after not particularly liking the 50Hz limits or 200w max of the MCM woofer, i started researching other drivers last night and took a look at the VM Audio Elux 15 which was recommended in a top 10 list, and the cheapest model there, but i wasn't liking the high 1.35Q or 54Hz resonance peak it produced in the 1.9 cubic foot box i'm planning on or the terrible amp frying or power wasting choices its 2 @ 4 ohm coils presented.

    tonight, i did some more research, sifting style, on something that would work better. i tossed the cheap, but thiele small parameter lacking hifonics brutus out of the running right away despite being reasonably impressed by the 4 hifonics 12 inchers i bought a few years ago. anything with a foam surround got an immediate thumbs down too.

    finally, as i worked my way up in price, i ran into the JBL GT5-15 which is easy to get under $80 delivered and just a few dollars more than the VM audio.

    [​IMG]

    after seeing many favorable reviews for it at both amazon and sonicelectronix, i decided to run the numbers. it turns out, it's recommended at no MORE than 2 cubic feet in a sealed enclosure with a 1.5ft3 minimum, where the VM wanted an impossible to find 2.6 cubic foot box. when i ran the numbers, this is the curve i came up with...

    [​IMG]

    it has a highish Q of 1.156, but that's what JBL recommends. i'm hoping that equates to a quicker snap of the driver. not only does the JBL have a smaller resonance peak than the VM in this box, but it also has even more output at 20Hz at a VERY respectable -15dB! it kicks the VM that kicked the MCM's butt big time with similar power ratings, a smaller surround (= bigger cone), a seriously nice 14mm xmax (!!!) as well as an amp friendly SINGLE 4 ohm coil.

    i'm not so much a fan of the exposed basket/gasket, the wonky dustcap/cone countouring or the intrusive JBL logo, but this is about the highest performing sub i'm going to find without spending even more as far as i can tell.

    it should also be an easy re-sale between it's output and brand name when and if i decide to sell it, but who knows, it might just maybe be all the sub i really need if it isn't too sluggish. i'm stretching my budget for it, but it should walk all over a pair of MCMs which are probably 10dB or worse lower output at 20Hz.

    between this 92dB deep reaching 15" sub, and the at least 300 watts, hopefully more, i'll be driving it with, i should be able to pump a big (resonance free) dance thump out of my system and embarrass at least a few cars along the way.

    oh yeah... if anyone's interested, here's the specs...

    Subwoofer Specifications
    JBL GT5-15
    Subwoofer Size 15"
    Peak Power Handling 1200 watts
    RMS Power Handling 300 watts (about what i'll actually have with nice headroom)
    Voice Coil(s) Single
    Impedance 4 ohms (not 2 ohms, 2 x 4 ohms, or 8 ohms, but the perfect load for bridging)
    Voice Coil Diameter 2"
    Frequency Response 25 - 400 Hz (not bad!)
    Sensitivity 92 dB (nice!)
    Xmax (millimeters) 14.5 mm (REALLY REALLY NICE!!!)
    Woofer Composition Polypropylene
    Woofer Surround Rubber (!!!)
    Magnet Structure Double Stacked
    Minimum Sealed Box Volume 1.5 cubic feet
    Maximum Sealed Box Volume 2.0 cubic feet
    Top-Mount Depth 7-5/16"
    Cutout Diameter 14" (i MIGHT have to do some filing here, but that's OK)

    Electromechanical Parameters
    Free-Air Resonance (Fs) 27.30 Hz
    Equivalent Compliance (Vas) 106.5 liters (3.76 cubic feet)
    Total Speaker Q Value (Qts) 0.67
    Electrical Q Value (Qes) 0.76
    Mechanical Q Value (Qms) 5.70
    Electrical Resistance of Voice Coil (Re) 3.63 ohms

    i kind of like the irony of sealing a JBL up too seeing that virtually all of it's speakers are ported. actually, the first pair of real speakers i ever owned were JBL 6 1/2" bookshelfs. i liked the speed and imaging of their smaller 5 1/4" siblings better, but went with them for the respectable bass extension instead.

    they looked just like these, except the tweeter's face plate was a medium grey. the tweeters were CALLED "titanium" but they were really just silver painted cloth. still, they were pretty decent starting entry level speakers even with the rear ports i took to stuffing with socks.
    [​IMG]

    i think they were PC 20s or something to that effect

    here, you can see the JBL 15" totally destroying the goldwood 12" (not even factoring cone size) that totally destroyed any other 12" i put it up against (not including car woofers) by about 9dB!

    [​IMG]

    in theory, the goldwood is rated 2dB more efficient, but i don't trust the graph i based the +9dB on as it showed much higher than 94dB efficiency. i would bet that a single JBL 15 is more than a match for a pair of the 12 inch goldwoods that i probably WON'T be using in the final system at this point as i wouldn't be surprised that 12" JBLs outclass them by at least a couple dB plus power handling for something like $20 less i think.

    the JBL should be a pretty good woofer to start with i think. -14dB at 20Hz with a 92dB -3dB at 25Hz rated woofer is not shabby. if anyone knows of anything in this price range that can do better WITHOUT a foam surround, i'd be more than happy to check it out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  16. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The 15" woofer is too big for the enclosure or the enclosure is too small for that huge woofer. Then the resonance frequency is high and there is no deep bass.
    Since your hip-hop music has no deep bass then the 15" woofer will look better than a 12" that would produce deeper bass in the enclosure size you will use.

    "Price range"? Are you a school kid without a job? If you want good sound then you must spend a little more than "cheap" for it.
     
  17. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    i'm in one of the worst job markets in the country and have had trouble making extra money after i pay my bills, and LATELY lots of late charge fees on my storage unit because my bank stopped paying them for several months i had to catch back up on. not everyone has money to burn you know? even if i DID suddenly get some work and start making spending money, a couple thousand of that would get spent on getting my belongings out of storage along with another life priority.

    i also wouldn't really want to invest in a really expensive system because the crime rate here is high and i don't want to play life & death over my system.

    as to the enclosure, it's NOT too small for the woofer. in fact, it's .1 cubic feet shy of the MAXIMUM enclosure size recommended by JBL if you would have looked at the specs. i think they have an idea what's optimum for their drivers.

    you really seem to have issues with about EVERYTHING i'm doing here, i'm guessing because you just hate the idea of anyone playing old school & funk in public. i hate having to listen to dirtbags play gangsta & heavy metal... oh well. at least i'm trying to put some upbeat positivity out there that's seriously lacking in the world.

    again, just as i'm not trying to SPL drag race, i'm not trying to win an SQ competition either. i'm just trying to create a space where i can FINALLY enjoy the music I LIKE and dance to it. everywhere i've played my taste in music with that saddlebag system, a lot of people, especially women, would get excited and then there's worthless can't dance jealous of those who can and the fact that they have more pull with the ladies racist haters.

    even if i did have more money, i ALWAYS look for the best bang for my buck, eg. NHT superzeros & panasonic class D. that JBL sub looks like a pretty good entry level value and A LOT better than the $22 MCM i originally considered and even the similarly priced $70 goldwoods i looked at. like it or not, and i don't really care if you don't THIS is the system i'm putting together FOR ME, and it will be more than good enough to get the job done.

    actually, i'm starting to think i WON'T build the 4 x 12 system i originally intended and go with a more compact single sub system so i can build an outer shell out of nylon, or some other dirt resistant fabric, and internally illuminate it as a rolling light show without wonky looking towers. i have to check the units i'm considering out first, but short of adding a second amp and upgrading my mains, i might be close to having my final system.

    just to drive you even MORE crazy hatin' on my stylee... i'm considering having an internally illuminated nylon outer shell "slab" system where the top and every side has one of these flashing to the beat inside turning almost every visible square inch of the system into a light show...

    haters will lose their freakin' minds! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    the rest of us will party like it's 1985
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  18. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I am enjoying this thread because you, your location and your bicycle sound system are very different from anything where I live or in this website.
    In my part of Canada there is hardly any crime, money grows on trees for educated people and nobody has a bicycle sound system (but I have heard a few people walking or riding a bike playing music on their phone). Most people outdoors play music privately on their earbuds but I have also heard them when they are very loud. I have seen a few people from Jamaica in the park blasting reggae music played on a portable car sound system built into a beer cooler powered from a motorcycle battery.

    I like the Sunflower light. Is it entirely electronic or does it have a motor to rotate it?
     
  19. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    it has to be electronic as it does multiple patterns, and the fact that it reacts to sound. besides, the LEDs are fixed. it would seem more cost efficient to program patterns onto a chip than some complicated mechanical system. even with "rave spinners" that have motors to spin LEDs that create patterns similar to these discs, i bet the patterns & switching are done electronically.

    i've noticed there are several different versions of the same thing too. i'll likely try two of them... one that was reviewed as "best" from a user who's tried several and another because it seems to make softer, more snowflake looking patterns that are distinctive from all the other variants i've found video for.

    i'm going to have to try modding the lights to if i go with them as all of them have cords that come out through their bases and that would block one or two LEDs. i'm hoping it's possible to rewire one so the cord comes out through the top, or towards the inside of the trailer when mounted for unimpaired patterns. a blurry black shadow on every panel would really cheapen the effect. if it's doable and i'm betting it isn't, i'd like to replace all of the red LEDs with purple ones for a better color harmony, and because purple is just a sexier color to me.

    the video quality is worse, but this TSSS unit might be better for sound activation, especially at high SPLs, so it's at the top of my shopping list.



    the patterns on this one are a little different though, the "greens" appear to be a nicer looking aqua that balances against red better, and with the light more diffused, it should be better at optically mixing colors (though the "glue trick" can be applied to any LED you want to diffuse the light from)



    i might even mix and match though, maybe with these softer lights on the sides and the crisper TSSS on top, or by dividing sides from the front & back. seeing what they look like in person though is most important. i kind of liked the "4 way +" pattern as well as the wider 2 LEDs per side triangles on the second unit too. i like the way that blue & red mix a nice magenta (hot pink) with these too. the colors look less "toy" than harsh RGB. it looks more like tie dye in the video. also, the first unit has both higher contrast & more saturated colors and apparent strobing that look like it's more likely to cause eye strain, much like some RGB projectors i used to own that were hard to look at for extended periods of time.

    i really don't get lighting manufacturers, they ALL base most of their lights on hideous looking RGB when they're not actually trying to optically mix the full spectrum where they could come up with more harmonious color schemes like green/blue/violet at the cool end of the spectrum, or red/orange/yellow at the warm end, but red & green, or pretty much ANY colors in opposition (on opposite sides of the color wheel) just don't go together well at all. same goes for yellow/purple & blue/orange, but red/green is the worst... sorry christmas. halloween orange/green isn't any better either as far as i'm concerned.

    OK... COOL... the lights can be inverted further away from the surface they're projecting on which diffuses their patterns and would solve the issue of cords blocking the pattern.



    i have no idea what droog's saying, but there's your definitive answer to what's inside

    everything after this has nothing specific to do with the system other than my motivations to build it, so only read on if you're hungry for some biography, history, & sociology

    i've ALMOST lived "in canada", both that the border in NY (one of the reasons i took the french i've never used) and a couple years ago in oregon which has a similar, low aggression/crime mindset, and i miss it greatly, but because the economy here is so bad, it's like quicksand trying to get out. as soon as i can afford it, i'm probably going to move to washington. the pacific northwest definitely has a different mindset than i've seen anywhere else in the country. the women there are the best! they're really down to earth, environmentally aware, and don't put any social climbing airs on. they go crazy for bike systems there. i've had my leg humped by an extra busty MILF with that saddlebag system playing "my sharona" among other positive interactions.

    UNLIKE canada though, i guess, people in oregon tend to crowd around party events at parks etc. one DJ used to hold bi-weekly outdoor parties downtown there, the cycling group where my saddlebag system got drowned out by the trailer system was there, and another woman set some speakers up in a park with a bike path through it and about 50 people were dancing to it. that's my kind of environment... people are enthusiastic about joining the fun there. i've seen some of that here too though the night i joined a loud-bike cruising event.

    me? i have SERIOUS issues with the attitudal pseudo-gangsta crap and soulless techno that gets played in clubs and have ever since the end of the 80s when good POSITIVE dance music was essentially murdered by record companies and replaced un-funky ugliness as they sought to turn the positive energy of REAL hip-hop into the next crack infiltration with gangsta crap and the country's vibe changed for the worse.

    so, for me, this system is an essential tool to fight back against the forces of evil... negativity inspiring attitude rap, as i've said before, soulless techno made by idiots with no actual musical skills just pushing a few buttons making disposable crap that sounds like everyone else's disposable crap, and the internal combustion culture. i'm making a stand for the things i believe in, and i STILL believe in the potential for hip-hop to do good (again) if only people can be exposed to it.

    - it inspires people to find creative outlets (dancing, DJing, painting, beatboxing and *ugh* even rapping) and that adherents apply themselves to self improvement in a form of neo-humanism

    - the TRUE message of hip-hop is positive and NON-VIOLENT. breaking was a way to end gangs. people would dance instead of fight (except for the knuckleheads) and there's a RULE in breaking that you never so much as TOUCH an opponent "in battle". it's a great positive way to fight stress and dissipate aggression, AND it inspired racial harmony. just as the era was ending with the rise of house/techno & gangsta/booty/money rap, i went out to this club where i was the ONLY caucasian, and it was a rough enough club that it had a metal detector and pat downs. despite that, once i hit the dance floor, no-one bothered me at all. within a year or two after that, i started seeing fights breaking out in dance clubs where i NEVER saw them all through the 80s wherever i danced

    - hip-hop is NOT a style of music, it's a CULTURE based on those tenets that, unlike my punk phase, i embraced and refuse to let go of despite the culture being "stolen from me" by those with an agenda to destroy it because of its growing power. i think "pump up the volume" was what REALLY scared elitist white america. here's this hip-hop song coming from the "UK motherland" being played by EVERYONE of every ethnicity. things started going downhill quick the summer after that.

    to quote some hip-hop songs, the CULTURE is about

    "peace, unity, love & having fun"

    "so come inside and don't be shy
    we're not here to hurt you, just have a good time"

    there were a few raps too about staying away from cocaine & crack or materialism in general eg.
    "calvin klein's no friend of mine, don't want nobody's name on my behind"
    &
    the ever popular "hip-hop and you don't stop" refrain always meant keep applying yourself to improve to me

    i can't quote any specific songs, but a lot of them used to end with "PEACE" and there was more than one early rap about negative MCs bragging or putting others down etc. that were ruining the positive scene the believers tried to preserve until outside forces first silenced the movement by cutting the flow of GOOD dance records off, then replacing them with the kind of crap you can't get away from today and that i'm keen to make a stand against in my little way.

    i KNOW at least some ladies will be with me. women generally tend to like non-aggressive music eg. easy listening in my experience, and were always the first ones to dance to a mixtape i brought to a party until some hateful racist threw a tantrum and got everyone to STOP dancing playing evil devil worshipping heavy metal or goth punk. i'm fighting against THOSE anti-positivity forces of evil too. the only way i can do it is to create my own scene i KNOW some will respond to just like both the riders and many on the streets did to the old school funk loud-bike played. it's a crime that people are deprived of the spirituality of positive dance music because so many sourpusses CONSPIRE against it, but i won't be silenced.

    i'm looking for my lost tribe, so to speak. the status quo music/social scene here does absolutely nothing for me. as much as i've ALWAYS despised the song so much that i couldn't bear to watch the movie until just a couple years ago...

    it's time to get

    [​IMG]

    on this redneck/gangsta town

    [​IMG]

    (BTW, we were dancing MUCH HARDER than the lightweight crap in that movie when it came out... not counting the gymnastics scene)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  20. budget minded

    budget minded Member

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    SYSTEM TEST:

    i finally got the amp powered up and did a quick test. the system is officially ready to roll once i get the trailer done. right now, the system just consists of one battery, the amp, a 20 amp light switch, 14 gauge wire scavenged from my speakers as the 10 gauge i bought at lowes was way too stiff with only about a dozen strands and wouldn't take a crimped on ring terminal, a distribution block to feed both the + and the remote terminals and my player.

    it sounds a little bit on the warm side, but has nice treble clarity too. then again, i was sitting on the floor further back with them off axis on the floor too. the bass boost didn't do much. i'm guessing it's set really low, like 40Hz where the proels don't go. i got better results using tracks that i pre-equalized with up to a 20dB boost at 50hz i think. then, they showed some bass, and the bass boost was more noticeable. i have that at about 75% now. any more than that, and the system starts to sound tubby. as it stands now, the sound is acceptable and there's enough bass that you can hear it well enough. if only the original nylon shell hadn't ripped at the seams the second time i used it, i could throw everything in that and be on my way.

    i can hear potential for the system turned up outdoors, but it's late here and i'm indoors. i don't want to drain the battery yet either. i wonder how much the amp would drain the battery with the remote off, but at the moment it's not an issue as both the + and remote are switched off now.

    the system sounds anemic using flat tracks, even with the bass boost, but also more airy in the treble. i'm guessing extreme digital EQ adds some distortion to a WAV or maybe i just used so much boost that it overwhelms all of the other frequencies. the treble is DEFINITELY better using the media player and amp than on my PC and receiver. NOW the proels wouldn't sound out of place in a hi-fi shop, especially subbed... best $120 i ever spent on audio!

    the amp isn't too shabby either. it has nice clarity, but isn't sterile sounding... very neutral and in between clinical and romantic sound. i would rate it as a little more liquid sounding than my panasonic saxr short of a head to head comparison. the combo is very low distortion compared to some of the shrieky cheap car speaker systems i've heard.

    anyways, the amp & battery work.

    i have a few tracks that distort because i boosted the bass into clipping i need to delete or re-EQ
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
  21. audioguru

    audioguru Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    20dB of bass boost requires the power to be 100 times higher than with the EQ set for a flat frequency response. 3dB requires 2 times the power, 10dB requires 10 times the power, 13dB requires 20 times the power etc.
    The amplifier might produce 50W (just before clipping) into each of your two bass speakers then the power in the mids and tweeters must be reduced to only 50W/100= 0.5W like a cheap clock radio. So for good bass you need low resonance speakers that match their enclosure or bass boost and much more power.
     

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