120v AC to 120DC @20amps

[CHELLIE]

how many cells are you running wit this voltage??? 120v dc is capable of running around 100cells, thats a big hydrogen generator. what are you planning on doing with the gas created??

the huge amounts of Oxy Hydrogen gas are for a Big Rig Diesel truck, im thinking about running 3- 21 plate Cells in series so 63 plates in all. 12 or 24 volts wont produce the volume i am looking for.

YouTube - RON THE TRUCKER - HIS MEGA 8X FUEL CELL RESULTS

 

[cobra1]

be aware thought that anything more than 1.2v per cell will heat the water and you will have thermal runaway resulting in massive current consumption. unless you use a pwm to regulate the temperature.
also you probably already know but to produce enough hho to run a car/truck will cost more in electricity than running it on petrol/deisel

 

[CHELLIE]

be aware thought that anything more than 1.2v per cell will heat the water and you will have thermal runaway resulting in massive current consumption. unless you use a pwm to regulate the temperature.
also you probably already know but to produce enough hho to run a car/truck will cost more in electricity than running it on petrol/deisel

Hi Cobra While HHO gas generation is not over unity, there are factors to HHO gas that defy Nature, HHO gas in that ratio does not explode, it implodes, because it wants to turn back to water, also when HHO gas is used in a torch, it wont burn your hand if held over it with the flame, but it will burn and melt Titanium, that needs 5000 degrees to do that, a OXY Acel torch only heats up to about 2500 degrees, OXY Hyd gas, caused the fuel gas or diesel to burn 25% better, so most of the fuel is burnt, oxy hyd turns to water when burnt, it flashes to steam after its burnt to cause more power in the cyl. and lowers the combustion temp. you have to find a Balance of electricity to HHO production to be effective, I know it works, because i have been able to double the fuel milage of my vehicles with it @ cruise speeds, the way it works is like this, at cruise speeds, most vehicles need only 8 to 10 HP to maintain that speed, the hyd fuel cell makes gas for 4 to 5 hp, the gas or diesel accounts for the other 4 to 5 hp, thats is why you can double your fuel milage at cruise speeds, because HHO is now half your fuel usage, not just that, but now you are using half the amount of gasoline or carbon fuels, and you are now helping to clean up the air we breath. these HHO Fuel cells are on demand and onboard, so i will be using a 12v dc to 120v AC converter, i am looking into making a device that will plug into the converter or to household a/c for testing, to make a regulated 120V smooth or pulsing DC current.

 

[cobra1]

hi, i am aware that hho implodes rather than explodes and am also aware of its properties when used for cutting etc.

it can also be argued that hho can help fuel to have a more complete burn, however there are factors that are unacounted for in an engine, in order to create the hho this puts extra demand on the alternator, in order to turn the alternator and produce the current needed this consumes extra fuel, the tiny amounts of hho are then pumped into the cylinders and the claim is that more mpg can be achieved.
here are a few more facts about hho well hydrogen anyway. hydrogen is 3 times as energy dense as petrol in weight, granted this is great news. however 1 litre of petrol is equal to 11000 litres of H2 @ stp
that same 1 litre of petrol has more hydrogen in it than 1 litre of liquid hydrogen.

so in reality i see no way to have an overall net gain from hho being driven by the cars electrical system, solar power etc, maybe but then storage becomes a problem.

i too like these sorts of hydrogen generator projects and have been working on them for over 5 years now trying to find the right method and perfecting it, these include, wet cells, dry cells, reactive cells (reactive metals) and i am currently working on a bio cell that is 4ft in diameter and 7ft tall.

i wish you luck with your project and should you need any pointers or advice etc then just pmme

 

[CHELLIE]

hi, i am aware that hho implodes rather than explodes and am also aware of its properties when used for cutting etc.

it can also be argued that hho can help fuel to have a more complete burn, however there are factors that are unacounted for in an engine, in order to create the hho this puts extra demand on the alternator, in order to turn the alternator and produce the current needed this consumes extra fuel, the tiny amounts of hho are then pumped into the cylinders and the claim is that more mpg can be achieved.
here are a few more facts about hho well hydrogen anyway. hydrogen is 3 times as energy dense as petrol in weight, granted this is great news. however 1 litre of petrol is equal to 11000 litres of H2 @ stp
that same 1 litre of petrol has more hydrogen in it than 1 litre of liquid hydrogen.

so in reality i see no way to have an overall net gain from hho being driven by the cars electrical system, solar power etc, maybe but then storage becomes a problem.

i too like these sorts of hydrogen generator projects and have been working on them for over 5 years now trying to find the right method and perfecting it, these include, wet cells, dry cells, reactive cells (reactive metals) and i am currently working on a bio cell that is 4ft in diameter and 7ft tall.

i wish you luck with your project and should you need any pointers or advice etc then just pmme

Awesome Cobra its nice to see another HHO Egg Head Here LOL I have been involved with HHO for over 5 years too, I love this stuff, I use a PWM too on 12 Volts, i found a E Bay seller that has some nice PWM in a case with a fan for very little money, I am aware of the Load drain on a alt. with HHO generation, so for most vehicles, 15 amps is the most you would want to draw from a cars electrical system to be effective and not load down the alt and cause a HP drain, its a Balance that you need to have or there is no MPG gain, with a 12v to 120 v converter you will use less amperage and produce more gas, that is what i am looking into,
over unity does Exist, westinghouse pantented a device back in the 60s that is on their minuteman missile,

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**
these are some of the 21 plate HHO generators i will be using

 

[CHELLIE]

hi, i am aware that hho implodes rather than explodes and am also aware of its properties when used for cutting etc.

it can also be argued that hho can help fuel to have a more complete burn, however there are factors that are unacounted for in an engine, in order to create the hho this puts extra demand on the alternator, in order to turn the alternator and produce the current needed this consumes extra fuel, the tiny amounts of hho are then pumped into the cylinders and the claim is that more mpg can be achieved.
here are a few more facts about hho well hydrogen anyway. hydrogen is 3 times as energy dense as petrol in weight, granted this is great news. however 1 litre of petrol is equal to 11000 litres of H2 @ stp
that same 1 litre of petrol has more hydrogen in it than 1 litre of liquid hydrogen.

so in reality i see no way to have an overall net gain from hho being driven by the cars electrical system, solar power etc, maybe but then storage becomes a problem.

i too like these sorts of hydrogen generator projects and have been working on them for over 5 years now trying to find the right method and perfecting it, these include, wet cells, dry cells, reactive cells (reactive metals) and i am currently working on a bio cell that is 4ft in diameter and 7ft tall.

i wish you luck with your project and should you need any pointers or advice etc then just pmme

Your going to love this cobra storing hydrogen in a Solid Metal Matrix

YouTube - H-CELL 2.0 hydrogen fuel cell power kit for hobby-grade RC racing........

 

[Ubergeek63]

Hi Cobra While HHO gas generation is not over unity, there are factors to HHO gas that defy Nature, HHO gas in that ratio does not explode, it implodes, because it wants to turn back to water, also when HHO gas is used in a torch, it wont burn your hand if held over it with the flame, but it will burn and melt Titanium, that needs 5000 degrees to do that, a OXY Acel torch only heats up to about 2500 degrees, OXY Hyd gas, caused the fuel gas or diesel to burn 25% better, so most of the fuel is burnt, oxy hyd turns to water when burnt, it flashes to steam after its burnt to cause more power in the cyl. and lowers the combustion temp. you have to find a Balance of electricity to HHO production to be effective, I know it works, because i have been able to double the fuel milage of my vehicles with it @ cruise speeds, the way it works is like this, at cruise speeds, most vehicles need only 8 to 10 HP to maintain that speed, the hyd fuel cell makes gas for 4 to 5 hp, the gas or diesel accounts for the other 4 to 5 hp, thats is why you can double your fuel milage at cruise speeds, because HHO is now half your fuel usage, not just that, but now you are using half the amount of gasoline or carbon fuels, and you are now helping to clean up the air we breath.

hi Chellie, nice to meet you. you can not safely get 120VDC@20A out of a 120VAC circuit without power factor correction. The safe max is more like 15A.

Fact of the matter is that the ICE is around 50% efficient, the standard transmission is probably 80% efficient, charging the batteries is 80% efficient, and water electrolysis is 80% efficient (although i seem to recall something that is still in the lab that might be better).

now there are better batteries coming into the marketplace now that help the situation as well as new electric motor technologies. there are also many tricks that can be pulled with electric motors... the ICE needs to be rated for peak power requirements, but the electric only needs to be rated for average.

In AC motors you can take it even further since you can run a 50VAC motor at 50VAC at rated speeds and at 300VAC at 6X speed with relatively minor additional losses in the motor. The trick is that you need to control the AC current and not the voltage. the frequency generates the available speed and the current generates the available torque, and efficiency (besides the fact that there are motor designs that are inexpensive and over 90% eff over 80% of the operating range) is knowing how much torque you need to supply current for.

further still puts a custom brushless gearless directly in the wheel.

BTW did you know there is a 230MPG diesel that is not allowed on the road in CA? it is not allowed on the roads because it is TO EFFICIENT! CA laws last I knew specified a maximum emissions per gallon of diesel fuel and it just belched out twice as many noxious fumes per gallon than it was allowed to ... does not matter that it only spewed out half as many per mile!

Learn | Aptera Motors

Dan

 

[CHELLIE]

hi Chellie, nice to meet you. you can not safely get 120VDC@20A out of a 120VAC circuit without power factor correction. The safe max is more like 15A.

Fact of the matter is that the ICE is around 50% efficient, the standard transmission is probably 80% efficient, charging the batteries is 80% efficient, and water electrolysis is 80% efficient (although i seem to recall something that is still in the lab that might be better).

now there are better batteries coming into the marketplace now that help the situation as well as new electric motor technologies. there are also many tricks that can be pulled with electric motors... the ICE needs to be rated for peak power requirements, but the electric only needs to be rated for average.

In AC motors you can take it even further since you can run a 50VAC motor at 50VAC at rated speeds and at 300VAC at 6X speed with relatively minor additional losses in the motor. The trick is that you need to control the AC current and not the voltage. the frequency generates the available speed and the current generates the available torque, and efficiency (besides the fact that there are motor designs that are inexpensive and over 90% eff over 80% of the operating range) knowing how much torque you need to supply current for.

further still puts a custom brushless gearless directly in the wheel.

BTW did you know there is a 230MPG diesel that is not allowed on the road in CA? it is not allowed on the roads because it is TO EFFICIENT! CA laws last I knew specified a maximum emissions per gallon of diesel fuel and it just belched out twice as many noxious fumes per gallon than it was allowed to ... does not matter that it only spewed out half as many per mile!

Learn | Aptera Motors

Dan

Hi Dan I kind of figured that i would not be able to get 20 amps from household current but 15 for sure Its Nice to meet you too Yea, the oil companies and the Gov dont want high milage vehicles on the road, because they want and need to sell fuel and get the taxes on the fuel sold, I am able to save half of my fuel bill with HHO @ cruise speeds, I am looking into higher voltage and less amperage to create more HHO, the amps put a load on the vehicles electrical system, and by lowering the amp load and increasing the voltage, i am hopeing to get even get better results, modern engines are not designed to run on pure HHO, so i will always use gas or diesel for lubercating reasons, i would like to use a 60% HHO to 40% gas or diesel in my vehicles, right now i am at 50/50 hho and gasoline, and am happy with that being a on board on demand, i would just like to see if i can do better Take care and have fun, Chellie

 

[Ubergeek63]

Hi Dan I kind of figured that i would not be able to get 20 amps from household current but 15 for sure Its Nice to meet you too Yea, the oil companies and the Gov dont want high milage vehicles on the road, because they want and need to sell fuel and get the taxes on the fuel sold, I am able to save half of my fuel bill with HHO @ cruise speeds, I am looking into higher voltage and less amperage to create more HHO, the amps put a load on the vehicles electrical system, and by lowering the amp load and increasing the voltage, i am hopeing to get even get better results, modern engines are not designed to run on pure HHO, so i will always use gas or diesel for lubercating reasons, i would like to use a 60% HHO to 40% gas or diesel in my vehicles, right now i am at 50/50 hho and gasoline, and am happy with that being a on board on demand, i would just like to see if i can do better Take care and have fun, Chellie

the problem is that you can not up the load voltage without upping the source current ... power is power regardless of the voltage. high power electric motors run at high voltage to reduce copper losses. The amount of load you put on your system will be the same no matter what the supply voltage.

Dan

 

[ronv]

Power supply

Bubble bubble toil & trouble. Saw your question on Gary's post about the dimmer. Not sure if that is a good approach to your problem. If I am understanding correctly you are worried about the 170 volt level you get when the filter caps charge to the peak value of the ac in? Seems like if 120 is good 170 would be better. Do you need smooth DC??? Seems like I recall people running these things from PWM's. If you can stand the ripple just your big bridge would work. If not I would use 4 2700 ufd. 200 volt dc caps like the 272m2000a052 from Mouser Electronics. Let me know if the 170 volts is really to much. From the video you posted it didn't look like they used anything fancy. A real 20 amp regulator at your voltage is not real cheap. If you are worried about the 170 volts, how about a half wave rectifier at 85 volts? This might be the best with the 8 caps. Getting a little expensive. $80. Do these really work?

 

[cobra1]

Your going to love this cobra storing hydrogen in a Solid Metal Matrix

YouTube - H-CELL 2.0 hydrogen fuel cell power kit for hobby-grade RC racing........

cheers for the link, i already have 6 titanium iron oxide cells to store H2, they take a while to charge up and get hot when there charging, warming them back up then releases the stored gas.

 

[tcmtech]

I did this write up some time ago here regarding my experiments with hydrogen gas as a fuel source. My hydrogen and oxygen comes from commercial tanks.

Hydrogen has great possibilities but there is more to it than just some simple electrolysis and your vehicles 12 volt power system.
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/some-simple-truths-about-hydrogen-and-hho.92243/

To make hydrogen an efficient fuel requires major physical engine modifications. One critical one being hydrogen requires diesel engine range compression ratios to get the power and efficiency out of it. In an unmodified gasoline engine the power output and fuel efficiency on hydrogen is dismally poor.

 

[CHELLIE]

Bubble bubble toil & trouble. Saw your question on Gary's post about the dimmer. Not sure if that is a good approach to your problem. If I am understanding correctly you are worried about the 170 volt level you get when the filter caps charge to the peak value of the ac in? Seems like if 120 is good 170 would be better. Do you need smooth DC??? Seems like I recall people running these things from PWM's. If you can stand the ripple just your big bridge would work. If not I would use 4 2700 ufd. 200 volt dc caps like the 272m2000a052 from Mouser Electronics. Let me know if the 170 volts is really to much. From the video you posted it didn't look like they used anything fancy. A real 20 amp regulator at your voltage is not real cheap. If you are worried about the 170 volts, how about a half wave rectifier at 85 volts? This might be the best with the 8 caps. Getting a little expensive. $80. Do these really work?

Thank you Ronv for the reply I am looking at a few different ways to power my Hyd generators, I may not even need a capacitor because the current is going through water, that may be good enough Yes the 170 volts may be to much voltage to use, as it only takes 1.2 to 1.5 volts per plate to release the hyd from the water, i am looking at hooking 3 hyd generators in series, with 21 plates each, and using a 12v to 120v converter to a bridge rectifier to power the hyd generator, I like the half wave rectifier idea too at 85 Volts These Hydrogen generators work very very well, i am using 30 and 55 amp PWM @ 12 volts, with a 100 Hz frequency , the 55 amp PWM has an adjustable frequency to it, these can also be used with 24 volts too, a hyd generator that i built, worked great, at Cruise speeds it would double my fuel milage, thats where they really shine, also the motor oil stays super clean, because almost 100% of the fuel is being burnt and used, you will always loose some fuel to heat I love the extra power that I am getting too, normally on most SUVs and pick up trucks, 15 amps is the most you want to use to generate hyd, because it does take power from the eng to make hyd, I dont think these hyd generators are over unity, they help to make extra power in a number of ways, the fuel is burnt 25% more effecient, the hyd burns turns to water then flashes to steam to drive the piston down longer under power, the fuel is burnt slower, its like getting 120 octane gas the added oxy helps everything to burn better, the eng sees the extra hyd fuel with or with out a comp. and will adjust for it, fuel savings of 20 to 60% is commom, with some vehicles getting 100% fuel savings or doubling your fuel milage @ cruise speeds 65 to 70 mph, I will also be making some portable units so they can be used in a boat too, I am just doing my R&D right now on some larger hyd Generators for big rigs, I may stick with 12 or 24 volts, but i just want to experiment a little the hyd or HHO gas is just a supplemental fuel, to aid in MPH, its not the entire fuel being used, a eng would need to be modified to run on pure HYD, like stainless steel valves, bronze valve bushings, ceramic coated piston tops, and ceramic coated combustion chambers, stainless steel exhaust system, high energy ignition system , ETC to name a few, also you will need to use syntetic oil to make it last, Thats why I kind of like a rotory eng Take care, Chellie

 

[ronv]

Half wave rectifier

Attached is the half wave rectifier. The parts are available from Mouser Electronics. I have to agree with some of the other posts that high voltage/current and hydrogen doesn't sound like a good combination. I read a little more but there are a lot of theories out there. If this isn't under control we can build you a big old PWM.

 

[ronv]

I was just looking thru you last post and noticed the 12 to 120v converter. I'm not sure how the the converter will like the half wave rectifier. Also you understand that it will take in excess of 200 Amps from the 12 volts to get the 120 volts @ 20 Amps out of the converter?

 

[tcmtech]

There is some serious price gouging on the parts being sold and a good deal of basic electrical and physics principals being over looked here.

First any inverter that runs off of 12 volt vehicle power converts that to high frequency AC then steps it up and then rectifies it to DC at around 165 -170 volts then re inverts it with a H bridge set up to make the AC again. The step after the high frequency AC rectification is pointless if all you need is DC. Just tap into the voltage feed back part of the inverters control circuits and set the HV DC to a lower level and skip the AC reconversion on the last step. Or just use the 170 volts directly.

Second the higher voltage will do nothing for improving the efficiency or volume of gas being generated. Basic physics dictates that. Only the line losses in the wire will be improved which if the correct size wire was being used would not be a problem in the first place. Also any line losses that are reduced are far less loss thatn that of the inverter at 80% - 90% efficiency.

Third The super novacell is just a stack of stainless steel plates in a Plexiglas or lexan case. Anyone who knows there basics of metals could buy a stainless steel sheet from a local fabrication and welding shop and have it cut to size for far less and build their own for under $200 or less.

Fourth given that the system needs 12 volts at over 200+ amps to run the inverter how far do you think this is going to run at that output before your battery goes dead being the reserve output of most stock alternators in a vehicle is under 30 amps at most after all vehicle loads them selves are taken into account.

Fifth what is the point of spending several thousands of dollars on this crap to hopefully double your fuel mileage if the avoided cost savings would take the life of the car and the components used twice over to break even on when factored into realistic driving conditions. $5000 will buy 1667 gallons of gasoline. 1667 gallons of gas would power a 30 MPG car around 50000 miles. Given that your savings is half at ideal driving conditions that account for about 20% of all driving conditions that would take around 250,000+ miles of ideal driving conditions just to break even providing that the HHO system never need maintenance service or repairs in that time.

Sixth I have no idea what car only needs 5 - 10 Hp maintain highway speed. Try 40 - 80 hp or more. Also 2500 watts equals 3.35 Hp. factor in the average efficiency of a high output alternator plus the inverter that could supply that from a 12 volt source and you need around 6+ additional Hp just to power the HHO system.

I am not saying that this couldn't work but I dont see how it would pay for itself unless it could run day in and day out with near zero maintenance on a vehicle that would have to realistically drive half a million to a million miles before it paid for itself just on theoretical avoided costs savings.

It is your time and money and you can do what you want with it but I would strongly suggest using a fair part of it up front to buy some real bonified and accredited physics, electronics, chemistry, and applied mathematics books and then spend a year of so experimenting and learning about how things really work in real life aplications.

 

[cobra1]

tcm i think you hit the nail on the head there, these systems just dont/cant work. i have tried many different methods to this approach with an engine that i modified specifically for running on hydrogen, in that the cylinders power cycle was on the upstroke rather than the down stroke, ignition was set to 4 degrees past tdc.
it was also built in such a fashion that it had no waste spark and the ignition timing was fully electronic.

i had good results but only when drawing around 150amps or more from the source, the cell was also bigger than the engine itself after a short time (5mins or so) the water reached boiling point and the system was rendered useless.

if you wish to continue with your project here are a few pointers from my observations.

use no more than 1.2v per cell (i.e 20 plates = 19 cells = 22.8v) current will be drawn as required by the system
use a plate spacing of 0.5mm
more hho can be produced if the cell is put under vacuum.
temperatures can be lowered when placing the cells under pressure.
noone has ever PROVEN one of these systems to increase fuel economy, it can be argued that driving style will increase the fuel economy.
the other reason for increased fuel economy is down to the electrical system in the car, the lambder sensor will see change in O2 levels and could lean off the fuel. Sounds great since your car now runns with less fuel, but what happens if an engine runs lean is it starts to heat up and could damage the engine as a result. also hydrogen causes embritlement in steel as it can penetrate the metal. leading to replacement valves and possibly pistons/cylinders

 

[tcmtech]

The more I re read everything in this post the less overall sense any of this makes.

If the OP has a car that already has double the fuel mileage with its current design what is the purpose of the redesign then?

Also the OP wants to put three 21 cell generators in series to run on 120 volts but 21 x 3 x 1.5 is 94.5 volts.
However the cells have a 1.2 to 1.5 volt working range so that would suggest that a 6 unit system could work on 170 volts with no problems. 170 / (6 x 21) = 1.35.
Seems like some obvious grade school math issues here along with the rest of the science that does not add up.

I would like to know what type of vehicle the OP already has this system on that doubles the present fuel mileage. What make, model, year, engine, alternator, other modifications, and total mileage with and without the HHO system is this on?

And how about some schematics and real pictures of the system that is in present use?
At this point this thread almost seems like a shady marketing scam more than a real "how to" or "how do I?" thread.

Just looking for some answers to fill in the usual 'I have a working HHO system but I cant give any real details about it' blanks.

 

[CHELLIE]

The more I re read everything in this post the less overall sense any of this makes.

If the OP has a car that already has double the fuel mileage with its current design what is the purpose of the redesign then?

Also the OP wants to put three 21 cell generators in series to run on 120 volts but 21 x 3 x 1.5 is 94.5 volts.
However the cells have a 1.2 to 1.5 volt working range so that would suggest that a 6 unit system could work on 170 volts with no problems. 170 / (6 x 21) = 1.35.
Seems like some obvious grade school math issues here along with the rest of the science that does not add up.

I would like to know what type of vehicle the OP already has this system on that doubles the present fuel mileage. What make, model, year, engine, alternator, other modifications, and total mileage with and without the HHO system is this on?

And how about some schematics and real pictures of the system that is in present use?
At this point this thread almost seems like a shady marketing scam more than a real "how to" or "how do I?" thread.

Just looking for some answers to fill in the usual 'I have a working HHO system but I cant give any real details about it' blanks.

Relax TCMTECH No Scam going on here Sad thats is how some people think, when others are looking for solutions, I am getting much needed info, i was not aware that a half bridge will generate less voltage, now i have some info to work with, I was not aware that a full bridge rectifier will bump up 120 votls ac to 170 DC, I learned that too, yes, I was able to double my fuel Milage at Cruise speeds, with a 93 ford Explorer, v6 , 4.0 Liter eng, with a home make HHO generator, made from 4" PVC Pipe and Lead Plates with no PWM, straight 12 Volts DC. but it was hard to control the amperage.

Hmmmm Shady Scam Huh, No Way, I am gathering info, Thats All, Sooo Dont get your Panties all curled up in a Bunch LOL You know, you dont need to click into this Thread, go elsewhere Please. I AM HERE TO LEARN

 

[Ubergeek63]

Hmmmm Shady Scam Huh, No Way, I am gathering info, Thats All, Sooo Dont get your Panties all curled up in a Bunch LOL You know, you dont need to click into this Thread, go elsewhere Please. I AM HERE TO LEARN

Hmmm I can think of a few adjectives that would describe you, but shady isn't one of them

I would think you would be better off using a boost mode current regulator

Dan