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Worldwide lighting made 20% more efficienct.

Discussion in 'Members Lounge' started by Flyback, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. alec_t

    alec_t Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Has the Isotera system already been officially approved as compliant with those standards?
     
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  2. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    No, but it might be worth them going for it, as theirs is about the only contactless lighting system in the world.....the absence of contact sparking will mean that the isotera system would be worth taking forward and making conformant with these standards...it surely must be cheaper to make an isotera lamp conform to standards concerning sparking of contacts during hot plugging of lamps, rather than a lamp that had contact sparking?

    ..I mean , if you don't get sparks when you hot plug a lamp (eg with the isotera contact-less system), then it must be an easy job to pass standards regarding the production of contact sparks by lamps in explosive areas?..since with isotera, there are no contact sparks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  3. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Since we are clearly off in lala land now dreaming about what ifs for a design that has yet to make it past R&D let alone get any official ANSI or NEMA ratings I think I am done with this thread as well. :(
     
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  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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    Whew, I'm finally to the beginning of the end of this "Thread"

    I enjoyed it. I learned a lot about lighting in general that I didn't know before, I hope when I install my first "Idoiotera" Lighting system I'm not "Microwaved" while reading my favorite novel.:p

    Has anyone counted how many times the OP has mentioned the name of the Company in all his posts? Not to mention the hole thread!

    I'm not going back........:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
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  6. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    I can assure you this will not happen. Its perfectly safe. In fact, even if you stripped the bus insulation and touched the bare wire, the 50KHz electricity sees the human body as a high impedance so, you'll be ok.....i"Soter"A.....Soter is the Greek God of Safety. "i" and "A" mean current...so its "safe current".

    Seriously, watch this space, because "they" (you know who), are just commencing a large installation in a brand new office block....its a big block. I'm fascinated to see how it goes on. The office block looks very smart....its more "wide are sprawling" than "high rise", but i only saw the picture briefly.
    I believe that the lighting fixture-ments are being made to bring out the advantages of isotera, such as its versatility, and ease of lamp changes for anyone , without needing electricians, and in fact, without needing tools...so women (or men) with longish nails etc can clip the lamps on and off...etc etc
     
  7. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    Malheuresement, Interior designers cost money…and they’re not cheap.

    By the way, a local bank recently moved their customer service desk 1 metre to the right so that customers queuing for it weren’t near a door to which staff access was needed.

    The LED downlight which had been above the customer service desk was obviously now 1 metre away from where it now needed to be for the new location of the customer service desk. This downlight was mains connected.

    The customer service guy offered to simply get stepladders, disconnect the mains for 10 minutes, and disconnect the downlight and move it to the adjacent ceiling panel , and then re-wire it in there. However, his manager said no, due to health and safety reasons no staff were allowed to work on mains electricity, and thus an electrician would need to be called.
    The electrician was called, of course, out of hours, as this couldn’t be done whilst customers were there. The Electrician bill came to £510………and that was just to move a mains downlight one metre to the left, to the adjacent ceiling panel there.

    If they had had a High Frequency Alternating Current (HFAC) lighting system, they would not have needed the electrician, and could have just painlessly and simply done the job themselves.

    Think of how many Government Buildings etc there are where taxpayers money has been spent on electricians to do thousands of similar jobs. This wouldn’t be needed if they had a High Frequency Alternating Current (HFAC) lighting system from companies like i*****a.
     
  8. throbscottle

    throbscottle Well-Known Member

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    They could have done it IF the hfac wiring was already in place where the light was needed.

    From what I know about large corporate organisations, I'd bet my lunch that staff still wouldn't be allowed to move the wiring and an electrician would still be called. Also, those ceiling panels aren't supposed to support anything. So in such a situation, where is your hfac wiring going to be attached? If staff did simply clip on an extra length, chances are it would be attached somewhere inappropriate, resulting, eventually, in a sagging panel over the service desk.

    Also, the case is an exception rather than the norm. It is rare to need to move an odd light like that, so the capital cost of the system would outweigh the benefit of being able to move a light once in a blue moon
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
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  9. ()blivion

    ()blivion Active Member

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    The system in question is an interesting idea that is not really common and mainstream, which is something I certainly like. But to claim it will revolutionize everything is a blatant exaggeration, not that I have never exaggerated before. :D


    My thoughts exactly. It's not that the OP isn't potentially right about "so-and-such" system scientifically being anti-spark and all. However, anyone looking to getting any kind of hazardous environment lighting will absolutely have to get officially approved gear that has withstood the test of time and stringent evaluation. So even if "what's-it-called" is better, companies obviously will not be considering it for that purpose from the very start for good reason.




    The only thing "Light-Magic-5000(as seen on TV)" has going for it that I can see is that in theory, you can slide the "couplers" up and down the length of the TP power cable to any arbitrary point. I don't really see much use in this though. You will need to move more than just where the light connects to power when you do such things, and most applications work best with consistent and even lighting all over the floor space. One can also simply have allocated extra wire on the light side of a conventional lighting system if there is potential for it's exact location to be moved. This too would clearly not need any break-make connections to function properly but would make use of what is already commonly available, wire and lights.

    The isotera concept is an interesting niche, but that's all it really is.

    In the end, any arguments about...
    -safety come down to official approval, which "this system" does not have. Admitted by the OP.
    -efficiency is shot down on many facets and has yet to be proven. Coupling, radiating, heat-vs-light, et. cetra. (Run the power cable through standard industrial steel electrical conduit and tell me it's still efficient.)
    -overall cost either ignores running cost, longevity, or availability of cheaper technologies, and that's beside the fact that the cost of "this system" has yet to be provided anyway.
    -convenience forgets most conventional lighting systems, including battery operated/personal lighting outlets every few meters.
    -reduced installation and servicing assumes every companys red tape will not consider it the same as any other lighting system, which is doubtful at best.
    -reliability generally does not consider the entire electrical circuit as a whole. The power converter box is just as important as any other part.
     
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  10. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    Being able to move the coupling around is trivial compared to relocating the light fixture.
     
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  11. johansen

    johansen Member

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    well, i can't say greek gods have decieved me, but i know the dark side spends a lot of time trying.

    in any case the body does not see 50KHz as high impedance.
    the current still flows.
    your nerves just don't feel it.
     
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  12. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    The isotera system is very much safer than any mains-to-the-luminaire lighting system.
    The isotera system is the simplest to utilise of the safe lighting systems.
    The isotera system is highly desirable in any system where hot plugging is necessary and resultant contact sparks are a danger...this is because the isotera system is available in absolutely contact-spark-free mode.....clipping and unclipping the coupler causes absolutely no contact sparks.

    ...this is the old way of doing lighting, since the 1960's...i.e., just throw up a trougher every 2 yards and bathe every square yard of room space in loads of light.
    Nowadays we believe this is wasteful of energy, and instead we strive to put small (often downlights) just where they are needed. However, we often find that we re-arrange the room such that we need to move the minimalistic downlighting, and this is where HFAC lighting comes into it.......it allows anyone, no matter how technically inept, to move the lights to anywhere else, and no electrician bills need to be payed.
    The ibus is flexible and moveable, and if you wish, you can get an extra degree of movement freedom by adjusting the length of the wire from the icoupler to the lamp....or alternatively you can put up with fixed 1.5 metre lengths of that wire and utilise the 3 metre diameter circle of space where you can put the lamp that is served by that icoupler and its connection wire.
    HFAC lighting companies are getting interest from big companies where purchasing staff have hired electricians at great expense to do small jobs, -these electricians often being relatives of these purchasing staff, who have not questioned overly high bills.
    Moving luminaires is not terribly difficult. It certainly needn't be. The HFAC lighting company I speak of is currently installing in several major national venues. These will be in the news soon.
    Perhaps installation electricians like to make luminaires difficult to move so that you the customer have to come back to them in order to move the luminaires?...and pay them handsomely for their services.
    In an i***era system, at the installation stage it can be assured that the luminaires are easy to move.
    The lamps have been installed very sucesfully in several agriculture venues so far, and other confidential places.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  13. ()blivion

    ()blivion Active Member

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    First off, deriving a proof from a theory is entirely false logic, which is the main reason I treat theoretical physics the same way I treat theology. If an underlying premise is yet to be proven, then all that comes after it is just as unproven, if not more so.

    In light of that, let me just fix this for you...

    Second, I can make up all sorts of convenient scenarios similar to any of yours that would make any kind of niche system seem like the ideal (or only) solution to a particular problem. But the fact is 99% of the worlds problems are average and straightforward and will only ever require establish and trusted solutions, even if they are not quite the ideal one.

    Well, "the Old way of doing things" is not synonymous with "the wrong way of doing things". I saw a guy on YouTube put all his clothes on in a just few seconds doing only frontflips. Should I stop putting my pants on one leg at a time now that I know this? Do you think this man doesn't ever put his pants on one leg at a time? Of course not, niche applications...

    Objection!, Hearsay. I see absolutely no provable basis for this claim, and as such the defendant should not be putting words in the mouths of whoever "we" happens to be.

    Virtually every operational building I have ever been in has had full room lighting and nothing less. This has worked wonderfully for humanity so far, and you have shown no good reason the world should change. To my knowledge, the average shopping center loses more to expiration dates and theft than they do by choosing to use less efficient electrical systems. And the average industrial complex has much bigger electrical wastes that floor lighting. This all being said, I can't think of anyone that would bother to light a shopping center or industrial floor in the way you describe.

    Arranging any space (the act itself) will require full room lighting. It would be awkward and potentially dangerous to do so with lighting that only lit select parts of the room, even if they were relocatable. On top of that, lighting the entire space automatically allows any configuration possible by it's very nature without needing to plan it out. Finally, the person/people that have to come up with an efficient custom lighting configuration are going to charge money just the same as any electrician does.

    More conventional systems than the system in question can achieve this. A system I mentioned before, one where the lights simply had just enough extra cord slack to be moved to any arbitrary point on the ceiling, would serve the very same purpose but use very standard equipment and lighting. This completely invalidates any arguments about the convenience and ease of the "whats-it-called" coupler relocation. A simpler and more conventional system doesn't require you to move anything but the lights. Hell, a careful crew probably wouldn't even have to power them off this way.

    This would clearly require exposing electrical conductors carrying potentially lethal energies, and as such this would be in the same category as any other electrical work, even if you make claims that it is somehow safer. Everything else is no different than any other electrical system either.

    The decisions of select companies says nothing for or against any particular technology and has no meaning to this conversation.

    This depends entirely on the circumstances. Often enough simply moving the physical lights is the hardest and most costly part. Shelf stockers or custodians are not necessarily going to be allowed to even touch such things, dangerous electronics notwithstanding.

    ...Alleged by you.

    Pure speculation. The hypothetical business practices of select companies says nothing for or against any particular technology and has no meaning in this conversation.

    ...Potentially, and only theoretically.

    ...Also alleged by you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
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  14. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Everyone has a different vision.
     

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  15. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    ....the icoupler will not give out voltages greater than 60V peak, and that is below the hazard level. Also, that 60V peak is obviously isolated from the mains in the power hub.
     
  16. ()blivion

    ()blivion Active Member

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    Considering the expected watts, that's probably BS... and irrelevant. In the eyes of the employers and their insurers electricity is electricity at any voltage and will require a certified tech. And isolation means nothing when you have to cut both the wires anyway.



    All your digging, and you're still not out of the hole you made yet. So heres some help... ↑up is this way↑
     
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  17. alec_t

    alec_t Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Nice one, ronv. LOL :D

    @Flyback
    When installed would the twisted pair cable be fire-protected by conduit? How would it be supported? Would it just be draped across a ceiling or floor?

    The proposed system is allegedly safer, but one potential hazard is if something incorporating an inductor (e.g. a motor or relay etc) were inadvertently placed close to the cable. The voltage induced across the inductor could be high enough to be a health hazard or to affect the operation of or damage associated circuitry and make it unsafe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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  18. Menticol

    Menticol Active Member

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    I bet this is not a product, it's just an Industrial Design Proposal. And proposals like this are the reason why sometimes I feel ashamed of my career.

    It's very common to see how some Industrial Designers only think about the Form and forget about the Function. They overlook the most basic scientific principles, arguing "That's not my field, an Engineer will take care of it".

    At the end of the day you get this:

    #3 Charging my device via magical means
    post_chrgingclip_bicicleta3.jpg


    #2 Use the power of the sun to power your toaster (they even include mAh specs!)
    21320_592937220731153_1034385845_n.jpg 11906_592937407397801_2058194200_n.jpg

    And #1, my favorite, The chainless bicycle were the pedaling energy is stored into a battery, and then the battery feeds an electric motor connected to the wheel. And also powers an LCD Display. Why not using a chain? Because "Chains are so ugly, yuck!"
    bicicleta-electrica-pedales.jpeg

    Obviously I'm not saying that all Industrial Designers think in that stupid way, there are brilliant examples like Dieter Rams. But unless the other "purely aesthetical" Designers change their mentality, one will keep hearing phases like "who cares if it doesn't work yet, that 3D Render looks sweet!

    I feel bad for these Angel Investors :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2013
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  19. alec_t

    alec_t Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    There's good reason for that. In this litigious age any employee tripping over or bumping into something in a poorly lit area is likely to sue the employer.
     
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  20. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    ..it can be either, conduit or draped over surface. Regarding fire protection ,there is an emergency light available for it.

    I have held a powered 50KHz ibus near relays and near all kinds of circuitry, and it certainly doesn't make the relays switch or affect the circuits in any way. The test load that I heard they used actually incorporated relays to selectively short out load resistors.....these relays were right alongside the ibus and weren't switched by the 50kHZ EM field.
    switch MODE power supplies have high frequency switching currents in them but I don't notice great damage caused by them to adjacent electrical circuitry or relays.

    ive just held my plastic enclosed laptop smps next to my digital radio, and it still sounds fine.

    The near field for 50KHz is quite far, so youre not really going to be coupling much out to surrounding metal structures etc. Microwave ovens couple much energy into food, but they operate at ~2GHz ...that's an awful lot more than 50KHz.

    Supposing I have a 20 foot length of ibus, and I run it along a metal surface inside a metal conduit , how much energy do you calculate is coupling out to the metal conduit in total?
     
  21. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    Got a price list yet? How much are those "customers" paying for the hardware?
     
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