Worldwide lighting made 20% more efficienct.

[Flyback]

Considering the expected watts, that's probably BS...

I assure you it isn't, the overvoltage trip on the icoupler can be set to any voltage you like. The ones I know of have it set to 60V, and the volts don't peak higher than 60V

In the eyes of the employers and their insurers electricity is electricity at any voltage and will require a certified tech

..There is something called "SELV" and for this , certified techs aren't needed.
I can go to CIRCUITSPECIALISTS and buy a PSU which gives 50V output...
**broken link removed**

..or even 120V output..
**broken link removed**
........and nobody will ask if I am qualified.

Got a price list yet? How much are those "customers" paying for the hardware?

...Theirs no special or expensive components , so it'll be a nice price.

The I*****a system saves you money by allowing you to use much lower luminaire count, and also saves you money on electrician bills.


A great many of the posts are stating that somehow I******a's system wouldnt be able to pass various laws and regulations.
I think we all forget just who ultimately makes those laws and regulations and passes them off...ultimately, these laws are passed through by those people in positions of power, people who own companies extensively and lands & properties.....these are the very people who dislike being charged large sums of money by for example electricians for doing very small lighting jobs.
These people are all for systems like I*****a that saves them from these kind of overly large bills.


And at the end of the day, I can go into the local supermarket, buy a mains plug, open it up and bring some bare wires out of it......and kill myself if I want......where's the laws stopping me buying that plug?
Have you ever walked down the street in eg Amsterdam and turned round and suddenly found that you're right in the way of a 1000 ton tram hurtling soundlessly towards you?.....you quickly step aside and realise you just evaded death by seconds...................nobody stops those trams from working...etc etc etc

Turn your radio on any morning of the week you like....listen to the national traffic reports......every single morning there are fatal accidents, just listen to them every single day............who stops the traffic?.....who brings in cars with 60mph speed clamping equipment?...........why are cars that travel at 140mph allowed to be sold...etc etc.

The "laws and regs" argument against I******a just doesn't hold up.

 

[blueroomelectronics]

...Theirs no special or expansive components , so it'll be a nice price.

The I*****a system saves you money by allowing you to use much lower luminaire count, and also saves you money on electrician bills.

Pure conjecture.

 

[Flyback]

Arranging any space (the act itself) will require full room lighting. It would be awkward and potentially dangerous to do so with lighting that only lit select parts of the room, even if they were relocatable. On top of that, lighting the entire space automatically allows any configuration possible by it's very nature without needing to plan it out.

HFAC lighting doesn't just light up one part of the room, it lights up whichever part you want...........as much as you want, or as little as you want. Lighting the entire space is fine if you are not paying the lighting bill.

Finally, the person/people that have to come up with an efficient custom lighting configuration are going to charge money just the same as any electrician does.

..the people that brought I*******a forward, are those people who have been appalled at paying high electrican bills. And who don't see why they should pay to light up things that don't need lighting up.

 

[()blivion]

When installed would the twisted pair cable be fire-protected by conduit? How would it be supported? Would it just be draped across a ceiling or floor?

..it can be either, conduit or draped over surface.

I am thoroughly convinced that if one brings the TP cable near any reasonably sized conductor you will get mass energy losses from induced eddy currents, and there is just about nothing the OP can say that would convince me otherwise at this point.

I have held a powered 50KHz [trademark removed] near relays and near all kinds of circuitry, and it certainly doesn't make the relays switch or affect the circuits in any way. The test load that I heard they used actually incorporated relays to selectively short out load resistors.....these relays were right alongside the [trademark removed] and weren't switched by the 50kHZ EM field.

VERY interesting claims.... considering I can't even have a shielded USB cables close to any PC speakers without getting mass buz. And USB TP cables are carrying 1/100000 the energy and are operating at frequencies much farther from audio spectrum that the system in question.

Sounds like even more BS if you ask me.

switch MODE power supplies have high frequency switching currents in them but I don't notice great damage caused by them to adjacent electrical circuitry or relays.

ive just held my plastic enclosed laptop smps next to my digital radio, and it still sounds fine.

I am quite familiar with what goes on in such things and I can tell you there is a humongous difference between a conventional offline SMPS and high energy AC running through several meters of TP wire.

The amount of conductor in an SMPS with high frequency and high energy going through it is deliberately short, fat, and shielded, to prevent the exact problems we are bringing up here with your system. You will also note that most SMPS's also have counter wound inductors near the mains side specifically to prevent the switching noise from escaping to the long runs of mains cable for pretty much the exact same reason.

The parallel you draw between SMPS's and your system is apples and oranges honestly. SMPS's do everything possible to not radiate power, your system does not.

The near field for 50KHz is quite far, so youre not really going to be coupling much out to surrounding metal structures etc.

This may be a loss in translation, but the near field being farther/larger would make the problem worse, not better. One needs to be inside the near field to be able to couple to it, and the larger it is the easier this would be.

In any case, I must remind you of my previous argument to any point concerning coupling, "you can't have your cake and also have eaten it."

Either...

(1) The TP cable EASILY couples it's energy, and you get problems with things potentially stealing power.
**OR**
(2) The TP cable POORLY couples it's energy, and you get poor energy transfer where you want it.

Any middle ground will certainly mean low efficiency.

The only reason a conventional transformer does not lose (much) power when large conductors are brought near it, is because most of the magnetic field is compacted and contained in the core material. But your system deliberately spreads out the transformer and removes the field containment. This brings the problem back in force.

Microwave ovens couple much energy into food, but they operate at ~2GHz ...that's an awful lot more than 50KHz.

Microwave ovens are shielded waveguide like boxes, the frequency is chosen to operate in a particular safe area of the spectrum, and they still can cause plenty of interference for electronic devices. The frequency is also chosen specifically because it's the frequency water absorbs the best. Finally, most thin pieces of metal will basically explode with a shower of sparks if you put them in a microwave oven, because they absorb the energies better than the intended target does.

Now... what was your point again?

Supposing I have a 20 foot length of [Trademark removed], and I run it along a metal surface inside a metal conduit , how much energy do you calculate is coupling out to the metal conduit in total?

Five...

In the eyes of the employers and their insurers electricity is electricity at any voltage and will require a certified tech.

..There is something called "SELV" and for this , certified techs aren't needed.
I can go to [branding removed] and buy a PSU which gives 50V output...
**broken link removed**

..or even 120V output..
**broken link removed**
........and nobody will ask if I am qualified.
.......snip.......
A great many of the posts are stating that somehow [branding removed]'s system wouldnt be able to pass various laws and regulations.
.......snip.......
And at the end of the day, I can go into the local supermarket, buy a mains plug, open it up and bring some bare wires out of it......and kill myself if I want......where's the laws stopping me buying that plug?
.......snip.......
why are cars that travel at 140mph allowed to be sold...etc etc.

The "laws and regs" argument against [branding removed] just doesn't hold up.

You are completely missing (or intentionally avoiding) the point...

(1)There are "laws/regulations", i.e. rules chosen by the masses/governing bodies that all members of a society are expected to follow.
(2)Then there are "policies", i.e. rules chosen by employers and their insurers made to govern what employees are allowed to do.

The first rule set is to prevent individuals or groups in a society from doing things that benefit or engage them at the expense of others. i.e. murder, rape, theft, scams, drugs and so on down the line. These things will apply to individuals as well as companies... (except apparently in America, where the rich are excused from this.)

The second rule set is to define a clear sphere for what an employee's tasks might reasonably be, to cover the monetary interests of the employing body. i.e. a baker may be allowed (and in fact encouraged) to sweep the floors once in awhile when the janitor is busy, but may not be allowed to scrub toilets due to the potential health risk.

We are clearly talking about the second rule set in this discussion.

The law will say nothing about a cashier installing low voltage safety lights on an electric shopping cart, but there is no way he/she is going to be allowed to do this mod to all the carts for their employers grocery store. One would have to be a certified electric cart technition for the manager to be able to OK the task. This is a policy choice.

Similarly, an employer may buy your system, install it, then decide that they want it changed. Well... if that change involves the cutting and bonding of electrical wires, the companys policy will likely forbid anyone but a certified electrical technition from doing the work. Making all your claims that it is safe for the common man to work on entirely irrelevant even if the work is actually trivial.

Got a price list yet? How much are those "customers" paying for the hardware?

...Theirs no special or expensive components , so it'll be a nice price.

The I*****a system saves you money by allowing you to use much lower luminaire count, and also saves you money on electrician bills.

I'm with blueroomelectronics (and probably everyone else) on this.

You can use any positive adjectives you want to try and dress up and sell this system, but without quantifiable measures and hard data, it is next to impossible to take you even remotely seriously. This is at least 60% of the reason you are digging your grave with everyone here I think. Come at us with spectrums of test cases, controlled experiments, and verifiable data, let us have access to some evaluation units, and show us some documentation. Then you might maybe be able to turn this around. But so far you have given us no reason to believe you and all the reason to doubt you.

Talk is cheap, proof is paramount.

Arranging any space (the act itself) will require full room lighting. It would be awkward and potentially dangerous to do so with lighting that only lit select parts of the room, even if they were relocatable. On top of that, lighting the entire space automatically allows any configuration possible by it's very nature without needing to plan it out.

HFAC lighting doesn't just light up one part of the room, it lights up whichever part you want...........as much as you want, or as little as you want. Lighting the entire space is fine if you are not paying the lighting bill.

You can do this with conventional lighting just the same. It's called "turning off lights that are not in use." If the lights are hanging from the ceiling by cordage, have plenty of slack, and can be controlled in groups at least, then there is no reason whatsoever to use your system.

Finally, the person/people that have to come up with an efficient custom lighting configuration are going to charge money just the same as any electrician does.

..the people that brought [branding deleted] forward, are those people who have been appalled at paying high electrican bills. And who don't see why they should pay to light up things that don't need lighting up.

...Alleged by you, and missing my point.

In reality, the people that do this work should know that a system requires the bottlenecks to be removed for the system as a whole to be optimised. And from what I know, how the lights are connected to the power is generally not the limiting factor. Just the planning and coordination of individual lighting could easily outweigh the cost of the small amount of power lost with full room lighting by a highly efficient conventional source.

 

[Flyback]

You can do this with conventional lighting just the same. It's called "turning off lights that are not in use."

....who will confess, to approaching a mains wall switchplate with , say 25 switchs on it in an array......and you are stood there flicking switchs to eternity trying to light the very lights that you want, and turn the others off..and then you accidentally turn someone's light off unintentionally and they start moaning..........what happens with these switchplates, is that people just enter the room and bang every single switch on to save time.
Obviously any lighting system, including HFAC lighting, can have PIR sensors to turn particular lights off if there is no movement near the light within x minutes.

Similarly, an employer may buy your system, install it, then decide that they want it changed. Well... if that change involves the cutting and bonding of electrical wires, the companys policy will likely forbid anyone but a certified electrical technition from doing the work. Making all your claims that it is safe for the common man to work on entirely irrelevant even if the work is actually trivial.

.......That's precisely one of the good reasons for "HFAC lighting"............there is utterly no need for cutting and bonding of wires when lights require serious moving and rearranging, reconnecting etc.

...As I said, there is a fixed length of wire between the icoupler and the lamp.......this wire can be left alone, and you can enjoy the 4 metre (or so) diameter of space where the light attached to that coupler can be placed. If you want, you can purchase a few different lengths of this wire and have it even longer......however, then the customer would have to manually unclip the lever connector and put the new wire in...........but there would be no cutting or stripping or bonding of wires.
More importantly, there would not need to be highly qualified electricians coming to do it and charging large sums of money.
Who knows, down the line, "HFAC lighting" companies could employ suitably trained individuals to go round customer premises and rearrange the HFAC lighting as per the customers wishes......such individuals would need only short, very cheap training in order to allow them to do the job, and would never charge heavy electrician rates.
I do realise that some members of staff will simply not be able to climb up a short pair of stepladders and rearrange the lights, even if it is an easy "clip-on" lighting system such as with "HFAC lighting"................for these people, perhaps HFAC lighting companies could have a group of cheaply charging staff available to go and get up the stepladders and rearrange the lights......they wouldn't need anything like electrician training, and wouldn't charge anything like as much.

Another point is that there is a shortage of electricians (hence the high rates). -And very soon, LEDs are due a breakthrough which will make them far more efficient........everybody will want LED lights.............and there wont be enough electricians to go round installing them all.......the existing electricians will charge enormous rates. At this time, people will pick up HFAC lighting, and do the installation themselves. I appreciate that its mains to the power hub, so obviously an electrician would be needed for putting the mains in for that part of the job, though in most buildings, that will already have been done.

One needs to be inside the near field to be able to couple to it, and the larger it is the easier this would be.

...Near field is 2D^2/lamba, but that's when the "antenna" is over half the length of the wavelenghth they emit..the wavelength for isotera is 6000 metres. The ibus wont be 6000 metres long, its obviously much smaller. I believe that the significant near field coupling distance for given unit lengths of ibus is very short indeed.
In truth their isn't lots of metal surface in most celings where ibus cable would be running...so not much hysteresis losses

I am thoroughly convinced that if one brings the TP cable near any reasonably sized conductor you will get mass energy losses from induced eddy currents, and there is just about nothing the OP can say that would convince me otherwise at this point.

I happen to know someone with an I*****a system. Can you propose a test that i can quickly do to assess this?....bear in mind he doesn't have stuff like PM1000 power meters etc and wont let me take them to his premises.
What say if I wrap some aluminium baking foil round 10cm of the ibus?.....you are saying that it will get hot? I don't think so.
I am certain that one of his icouplers was open-lamp once, and so it tripped off requiring reset.....the ibus was still running through the ferrite core of this icoupler......I touched the ferrite core, and it was stone cold..........I appreciate that ferrite doesn't suffer eddy currents as much as iron, say, but it still suffers significant eddy currents if the frequency/amplitude is high enough...but it was stone cold

 

[alec_t]

In truth their isn't lots of metal surface in most celings where ibus cable would be running..

If the cable is in the ceiling space then non-skilled individuals/employees won't be allowed access to it to reconfigure the lighting system. It's much-trumpeted alleged advantage then disappears .

 

[Flyback]

If the cable is in the ceiling space then non-skilled individuals/employees won't be allowed access to it to reconfigure the lighting system. It's much-trumpeted alleged advantage then disappears

....yes but with isotera, the level of skill required to access the lamps and rearrange them is far less than the skill of an electrician who is qualified to work on the mains. As I said, in time, isotera could train their own team of lighting techs, who wouldn't charge anything like electrician rates.....or customers could do it themselves if they want.....there are no laws stating that a member of staff can't lift up a ceiling panel from a pair of stepladders.

 

[alec_t]

As I said, in time, isotera could train their own team of lighting techs, who wouldn't charge anything like electrician rates...

Are you serious? Techs will charge as much as the market will stand . Or is this company intending to run as a not-for-profit organisation? I don't think the angel investors would be happy with that.

.

there are no laws stating that a member of staff can't lift up a ceiling panel from a pair of stepladders

Maybe not laws, but certainly company policy. In my previous employment office staff weren't even allowed to move a desk; 'elf 'n safety' ruled the day.

 

[Flyback]

Are you serious? Techs will charge as much as the market will stand

these wouldn't be mains-qualified techs......these would be people who are trained to get up a pair of stepladders and clip an icoupler onto an ibus.........if they started requesting massive wages, then they would be sidelined, and someone else given their job.

Just type into google phrases like "electrician overcharged me" and see the vast number of people who've been ripped off by electrician charges, eg

**broken link removed**

...add to this the number of companies, where the electrician has gone in, knowing full well that the supervisor isn't the guy who's going to be paying the bill, so ups his rates to astronomical levels...........if its Government offices, then you the taxpayer foot these bills.

Isnt it depressing how not one single person has written here to say "what? electricians charge too much, they always charge reasonable prices"..................well, you now know the answer , its called "IFAC Lighting"............."Intermediate frequency alternating current lighting"

 

[blueroomelectronics]

Here in North America you need a licensed electrician (usually unionized) to do electrical work, especially in Government offices.

 

[Flyback]

Here in North America you need a licensed electrician (usually unionized) to do electrical work, especially in Government offices.

.....yes but you wouldn't if they were working only on an I*****a system


Here's just a few reasons why you and I need IFAC lighting.......we are in the same boat, we are all victims of this....


https://www.electriciansforums.co.u...electrical/36085-am-i-being-over-charged.html

https://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/electrician-pce-c208740.html

https://www.electriciansforums.co.u...rical-forum/65215-am-i-being-overcharged.html

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...an-over-charging-me..need-opinions&p=69006517

**broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

 

[tcmtech]

I know this guy named Rumpelstiltskin that can spin straw into gold.

Given the volumes of straw you have pulled out in incredibly weak and far fetched defense of the isotera system there is a good chance you and him could single handedly balance the national debt of at least the half a dozen countries by now.

BTW what medications are or should you be taking?

 

[()blivion]

.....yes but you wouldn't [need a certified tech] if they were working only on an [Branding Deleted] system

It's an electronic system, so YES... you still would need a tech to work on it for obvious safety reasons.


Well, I'm pretty much done with this.

Even if Flyback and his system are getting verbally destroyed by everyone and their dog here, I still think just plastering the product/discussion all over the forum is in some small way helping perpetuate his propaganda. Be consistent with a falsehood long enough and at least someone will truly believe you. To that end, I think it would probably be appropriate to request this thread be locked/removed and user be reprimanded... IMHO, he is clearly abusing the forums, just not doing the best job of it.

 

[Flyback]

OK...ill stop now. Rather than remove it , could you perhaps allow me (or your chosen rep) to go through and replace the word (you know what) with some miscellaneous word.....ie if you are worried I am trying to advertise. Can the web pages have a 'find-and-replace' type operation done on them?...I don't know, my IT skills are not up to it unfortunately.
Alternatively , allow it to continue attracting comments from others, but I hereby promise, that I personally will not post any more threads in this post....unless at least five others (who already posted here) request it from me.