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Toner transfer release agents.

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Hero999, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    It is more then fair. We tried to take our discussion elsewhere and you followed.

    If and when people can find a magazine with paper that works for them I say more power to them.

    3v0
     
  2. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    There are a lot of things to consider using common paper and a clothes iron, and finding just the right type of magazine paper is just one. You also need to find the best temperature setting for the iron. How much pressure? iron how long? Leave the board soak for how much time before attempting to pull it free? Cleaning up the pulp fibers in between traces... From the time you print, until your board is drilled and ready to solder, how much time is spent? Including having to restart, if the transfer isn't good?

    Yes, you can make good PCB with magazine paper and a clothes iron, pretty neat, all common items. You could even draw a little acid out of your car battery to do the etching. Just not simple or easy, or reliable.

    The Pulsar paper performs exactly as advertised, although I will admit to not having tried it with the cloths iron, but it's still got to be better than regular paper, since the toner doesn't get into the fibers.

    Your typical one-line responses to any toner-transfer interests doesn't help for people doing their first boards, or even people who can't get Pulsar or P-N-P (never tried it). 'Just use magazine paper' doesn't give much of a clue to what trouble to expect for a while, until you figure out all the parameters to make it work. The Pulsar paper reduces the problems greatly. Until you find a release agent, there is no comparison. Your claims of magazine paper being just as good, are false, and that is what bugs me so much. I get upset, because I spent quite a few days, over several months, with common papers around the house, and a cloths iron, with only a few boards to show for it. It was aggravating, frustrating, confusing, and I don't find it amusing to see other people go through all that, when they don't have to, just because they are lead to believe that magazine paper works just as well, and it's free.

    So yeah, I get mad every time I see the comparison, without all the facts. Maybe you can block out all the negative aspects, not something I'm real good at. I remember too much stuff, maybe when I get older...
     
  3. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    I've not had any of the problems you desicribe, for me using magazine paper is a completely stress free process. I find it highly amusing that people will spend $1.50 on a sheet of flaming paper.


    Anyway, I'm not going to discuss the magazine paper vs overpriced proprietary paper any further in this thread. I've created a new thread for that.
    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/...ine-paper-vs-rip-off-proprietary-paper.95167/

    Back on topic.

    Here are some boards I've made using magazine paper.
    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/pic-programmer.30585/#post226213
    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/imag0032-jpg.13259/
    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/imag0031-jpg.13258/
    http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/imag0030-jpg.13257/

    I've posted pictures of other boards before but these are the only examples I could find.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Rolf

    Rolf Member

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    Updates:
    The Elmer's Glue Jell does not work when diluted to any extent.

    And hair spray was a failure.
     
  6. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    In what respect was hair spray a failure?

    Was it no better than magazine paper on its own or did it make it harder for the toner to be released?
     
  7. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

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    Hero999, please comment on the RS Catalog paper as you are from England
    we also get the type of paper used by RS controls India Ltd of RS components UK.
    if the type of paper would work, perhaps many would have old catalogs lying with them
     
  8. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    We should start a list of paper/magazines that work.
     
  9. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    RS catalogue paper won't work, it's too thin, so will probably jam the printer.

    I haven't tried it but I know The Radio Times will work, damn that's a UK-only magazine. :(

    I need a international magazine so I can recommend it to people in different countries.
     
  10. Rolf

    Rolf Member

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    I cant compared it with plain magazine paper because I only tried it briefly many years ago, before I switched to P-n-P.
    After a few minutes of soaking the paper it released pretty good were there were no toner but it stuck pretty good to the toner, so I gave up and ripped it off.
    Remember with the Elmer's Glue Jell the transfer paper just slid off.
     
  11. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    I tried a stiff paper called "cast coat". It's about $10 for a a ream of 250 sheets and is a lot like heavy magazine paper. Release is pretty good after 10-15 minute soak, like magazine page without much printing. Typical fiber mess but rubs off easily.

    I tried another run coated with Elmer's Washable Clear School Glue. I applied it with a Speedball hard rubber roller I bought at Michaels called "Brayon en caoutchouc dur Rodillo de cauche duro" for about $9.

    Release was very good but it took about two hours of soaking. It left a slimy glue coating on the board that washed off easily without disturbing the toner.
     
  12. Rolf

    Rolf Member

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    The only Elmer's I use now is, is Elmer's Washable School Glue, No Run Gel, about $2.25 for 4oz. Purchased at Ace Hardware. Make sure it says washable school glue.

    I also bought (today) a plastic clip board and a vinyl squeegee, this is a 4"x2 3/4" that vinyl sign makers use, and they will probably give you one.

    How to make a sheet ( or a doz ) DIY toner transfer sheets in a few mins.

    Cut a number of sheets out of a magazine, I happen to use Popular Science.
    Fasten one sheet in the clip board. Run one bead (only one) of Elmer's across just below the clip, then take the squeegee and stroke it down to wards the bottom of the sheet, three or four strokes should do it. The paper docent even get wet enough to curl. Time maybe a minute, so you might as well make enough. Drying time 10 - 15 minutes depending on conditions. No ironing should be needed before printing.
    I use normal iron transfer, then soak for a few minutes until the transfer paper just about slides off. Not any noticeable glue residue.

    The trick when using this glue is to use a paper that lets the water penetrate quite easily.

    Better luck next time.

    Rolf
     
  13. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Great work Rolf.

    Is there any chance of making the glue work on something that passes light. Might make alignment easier for DS boards.
     
  14. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

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    conventionally, three hole confirmation method is used for ensuring proper alignment of the artwork, i heard.
     
  15. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

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    we can perhaps try such paper in support of the existing paper.
    it was described by pulse as"economising the special paper", though in this case, it is not economy but as a support by use of a sticker at the top edge.

    I took support of ordinary A4 sheet as support. Printing sample is attached as photograph taken with Kodak Z730 at 5Mpix and as close up. Little curling of paper still noticeable. we need to look at the effectiveness.
    Printing has been done on my HP P1007 with eco mode removed
    of course, the transferability needs to be checked, though.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
  16. Wond3rboy

    Wond3rboy Member

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    I do the same with my paper although its dirt cheap.Just like Sarma did although i initially did it because no body would let me print on that paper since it is too thin.

    Never tried the Glue thing though.Will it work with a standard UHU?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2009
  17. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    I don't see why it wouldn't transfer but I wouldn't expect it to be as good as clay coated magazine paper.

    RS catalogue paper isn't glossy so there's not release agent, it will work but you'll probably have to wait awhile for the paper to become soggy enough to remove.

    UHU make a wide range of adhesives, some are water soluble others are not, as long as the one you use is then I don't see why it shouldn't work.
     
  18. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

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    Here is a photo of trial of fraction of the sheet i printed. I am not in for etching at this stage. Little bit of hand rubbing was warranted. the edge of one side is not registered properly on to copper.
     

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  19. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    What do you mean?

    It appears that all of the section you've tried has transferred very well.
     
  20. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

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    please see the bad locations markesd in Green, Hero999 !!

    i need to improve, as small tacks like those for SMD may have problem, i fear.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
  21. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    I think you're being too picky, you're not going to solder anything to the outside tracks, it's just part of the ground plain isn't it?

    The fine detail in the middle of the board has transferred perfectly.

    I tend to avoid putting traces in between DIL pins, unless there's a solder resist layer, as it's very easy to bridge them with solder.

    I've often found that tracks near the edge don't transfer so well, it's an issue with the ironing not the paper. The solution is: don't put any tracks too near the edge of the board, it's considered to be bad practise anyway. It's different with planes since they're already thick enough any way.

    If it bothered you, just touch it up with a marker pen.
     

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