1. Welcome to our site! Electro Tech is an online community (with over 170,000 members) who enjoy talking about and building electronic circuits, projects and gadgets. To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.
    Dismiss Notice

Time travel ..here we come

Discussion in 'Mathematics and Physics' started by Mosaic, Feb 11, 2016.

  1. Mosaic

    Mosaic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes:
    125
    Location:
    Caribbean
  2. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes:
    497
    Location:
    Vermont (GMT-5:00)
    Seems pretty ambitious and unscientific to state with complete certainty that the so-called "chirp" was caused by the gravitational waves. Seems to me there is any number of possible reasons why that might happen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes:
    219
    Location:
    Fairview, Or
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 1997
    Messages:
    -
    Likes:
    0


     
  5. crutschow

    crutschow Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    10,310
    Likes:
    432
    Location:
    L.A., USA Zulu -8

    I'd be happy to hear what those reasons are. :rolleyes:
     
  6. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,595
    Likes:
    470
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH, USA
    ONLINE
    Those are pretty impressive results. I knew the strain was small, but just looking at that exponent impressed me.

    John
     
  7. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,355
    Likes:
    497
    Location:
    Vermont (GMT-5:00)
    It seems to me any fluctuation in the length or shape of one of the "legs" of the antenna could cause a phase shift of the lasers and cause the "chirp". The Earth shifts all the time, so I imagine this wouldn't be uncommon. I'm not saying it's not gravitational waves, I'm just saying that it probably shouldn't be said with absolute certainty that it is.
     
  8. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    5,595
    Likes:
    470
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH, USA
    ONLINE
    As I understand it, both detectors changed synchronously different in time only by the distance between them divided by the speed of light (or something close to that). Disturbances caused by atomic blasts (just as an example) don't travel at that speed. It seems extremely unlikely that any local interference or disturbance would would occur at both sites with such coordination.

    Coordinated scientific fraud is still possible, which is one reason independent confirmation is still needed. (Remember "cold fusion?")

    John
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Mosaic

    Mosaic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes:
    125
    Location:
    Caribbean
  10. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes:
    219
    Location:
    Fairview, Or
    The 'discovery' of GW is just a confirmation of an old and tested theory so it's nothing earth-shaking in direct science but the advanced technology and engineering needed to build gravity telescopes to detect, select and localize these events is very impressive. We've seen the modeled (using GR) signature before with electromagnetic signals so would it have been a real shocker if the gravitational wave signature (also modeled with GR) was missing.
     
  11. MrAl

    MrAl Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,935
    Likes:
    941
    Location:
    NJ
    ONLINE
    Hi,

    I was wondering why that day i aged more than usual, then got a little younger again, then aged again,
    and also felt a little heavier, then lighter, then heavier again :)

    When i used to watch the ocean waves going in and out at the beach i had to marvel at the energy that must have been taking and how it could be harvested. In comparison the black hole collision must have released an amount of energy i just can not imagine. So much energy it could probably create ocean waves for an untold number of years.
     
  12. crutschow

    crutschow Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    10,310
    Likes:
    432
    Location:
    L.A., USA Zulu -8
    The amazing part is that they could measure it at all.
    The system must be able to measure distances as small as 10E-19 meter.
    The proton has a radius of about 0.85 × 10E-15 meter, or 10,000 times larger. :eek:
    That's why Einstein thought they would never be able to measure it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  13. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes:
    219
    Location:
    Fairview, Or
     
  14. MrAl

    MrAl Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,935
    Likes:
    941
    Location:
    NJ
    ONLINE
    Hi,

    Yes it is quite an acheivement in human science history, and the ramifications are quite amazng too.
    An interesting point is that particular event only occurs once, period, in the entire history of the universe.

    I have always been amazed at the amount of energy in the universe, and in particular the amount of energy in some cosmic events.
    I see now that it looks like the amount of energy released in that ONE collision, in a total time of less than 100 milliseconds, would have been enough to keep life on earth as it is right now today, for about 60 billion years! That's just too much energy to comprehend.

    Calculate the surface area of the earth in square meters: 4*pi*(6.4e6)^2=5.15e+14
    Multiply times number of hours in one year: 1.62e22
    Multiply that by 60e9: 9.72e32 kilowatt hours
    So about 1e33 kilowatt hours.
    That's a billion trillion trillion kilowatt hours.

    We are very very lucky that this did not happen nearby or the earth would have been destroyed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  15. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes:
    219
    Location:
    Fairview, Or
    Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council warned them many years ago about the need to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. MrAl

    MrAl Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,935
    Likes:
    941
    Location:
    NJ
    ONLINE
    Hi,

    And that's only one way. Another is a gamma ray burst in our direction. And unfortunately, non fiction.
     
  17. Rich D.

    Rich D. Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2014
    Messages:
    191
    Likes:
    13
    Location:
    West Chester, PA
    OK, I sorta get all the science stuff, gamma rays and gravity waves. What I don't see is the connection to time travel. I believe time travel is a concept but not a real thing, just a myth.
    You can't go back to a time in history because it happened already! You are by definition too late. It's done.

    Time travel to the future is easy, and I have perfected it on my living room couch. Simple: just wait for it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. spec

    spec Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,828
    Likes:
    707
    Location:
    Somerset UK GMT
    Ahh, but you have not factored in man-made global warming.:D

    spec
     
  19. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    9,777
    Likes:
    292
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    I find it hard to believe this was detectable with a 2.5 mile detector. If you had a detector that was from here to the sun it would change length by 1 part in 5 x 10^22

    Distance to sun 150,000,000 km
    150,000,000/5 x 10^22 = 3 x 10^-15

    That is 3 nm or about 1/200th of the wavelength of red light. And there detector was 30 million times smaller!

    It's either very incredible or very suspicious.

    Just saying,;)

    Mike.
    Edit, Seems the sensitivity claimed is 1 in 5 x 10^22, gravity waves distort by 1 in 10^20. So, I was out by a factor of 500!! Their 4km detector would distort 400 X 10^-15 m = 400 femto meters!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. MrAl

    MrAl Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,935
    Likes:
    941
    Location:
    NJ
    ONLINE
    Hi,

    Hey that's funny. So we are all time travelers then :)

    The main point i think is that the gravity wave shows that time is not the same in every locality and also proves a part of relativity theory, which is the same part that predicts time travel. Since time was shown to actually change because of the wave, then time is just part of the space time continuum and so is NOT a separate dimension.

    One way to help visualize this is to imagine a 2d surface like a square sheet of paper that is held flat for a moment, but then carefully lifted upward little by little keeping the surface flat. Since we can view the paper is existing in the x,y dimensions then we can call the distance it is moving upward the 'z' dimension, and so we just moved a surface through a 3 dimensional space. Note now we have NO problem whatsoever moving the paper back DOWN to where we started. So we freely moved the paper from say y=0 to say y=12 inches high, then back down again.
    Now take the dimension we called 'z' and replace it with a new form of time, call it "time 2". We can then say that we had no trouble moving the paper back and forth through "time 2". We started at maybe time 2=0 then moved to time 2=12, then moved it back to time 2=0 again, no problem.
    Now replace what we called 'time 2' with just 'time' and there you have it. The paper traveled through time.

    So time and space can be viewed as if it was a solid just like any other object we might find, like a cube, except time is the fourth dimension which is in addition to our usual 3 that we see all the time.

    The real problem is that this kind of movement is not in our common experience, therefore it seems impossible. There are many things that are not in our common experience that seem outrageous when we find out the truth about them. From the day we are born to the time we die, most of us never see this actually happen because it is a hard thing to observe anywhere. Using scientific instruments of all kinds we can start to see these things unfold and sometimes they are quite astonishing.
     
  21. MrAl

    MrAl Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    10,935
    Likes:
    941
    Location:
    NJ
    ONLINE
    Hi,

    Somehow i just found this thread again, not sure how :)

    I didnt go over the math, but that's not the right distance to use in the calculation.
    The detector might have been 2.5 miles long (and wide) but the detect distance could have been a huge multiple of that distance therefore making the detect distance look many times longer than that 2.5 miles. The trick is to bounce the laser off of a set of mirrors so that the light beam has to cover maybe 2500 miles rather than just 2.5 miles. It could be even more than that. Add to that the latitude beam would change opposite to the longitude beam, so we'd see the two beams react in completely opposite ways if a real gravity wave hit.
     

Share This Page