TIG HF coupling transformer

[dr pepper]

Heres a thread I started on another forum, its very similar to yours only I built mine from a vehicle ignition coil as the whole thing runs from 12v vehicle power and a vehicle engine driven alternator, the high voltage part is a marconi oscillator.
https://www.edaboard.com/thread172613.html
Heres an article on how it works:
**broken link removed**
I used stack of 25 x 15 x 10 N87 ferrite cores, 10 in total I think, you can see the trans on the thread.
I metion in the thread it didnt work on an ac weld set, that was my snafu, it wasnt powered up.
To protect the weld set or alty whatever is powering the system you can put a 1u motor start cap across it, this effectively shorts out the hf and directs it to the arc.

 

[spec]

Heres a thread I started on another forum, its very similar to yours only I built mine from a vehicle ignition coil as the whole thing runs from 12v vehicle power and a vehicle engine driven alternator, the high voltage part is a marconi oscillator.
https://www.edaboard.com/thread172613.html
Here's an article on how it works:
**broken link removed**
I used stack of 25 x 15 x 10 N87 ferrite cores, 10 in total I think, you can see the trans on the thread.
I metion in the thread it didnt work on an ac weld set, that was my snafu, it wasnt powered up.
To protect the weld set or alty whatever is powering the system you can put a 1u motor start cap across it, this effectively shorts out the hf and directs it to the arc.

Thanks for posting DP.

Can I ask, what frequency did you drive the ignition coil at?

Also, are you saying that the HF trig circuit operated normally with an AC weld current or was the spark reduced with an AC weld current?

spec

 

[shortbus=]

If my memory serves, that is how the arc looks when you pull the electrode farther than its "comfort zone".

Even within the 'comfort' zone, this spark scatter can happen with a water cooled torch that is leaking in the head. The liquid turns to steam and ionizes causing the scatter.

 

[dr pepper]

If you are using Dc then you can get arc blow, the arc is affected by the magnetic field.
The type and quality of the weld set, the electrode and the way the work is grounded all affect arc blow.

 

[Mobius]

Hello,
Does anyone have any thoughts on these part choices?

500pf 30kv cap
**broken link removed**
or these
**broken link removed**

100 ohm 10w resistor
**broken link removed**

2k 10w resistor
**broken link removed**

and I was going to use a motor start cap for the 3uf 400v cap
Thanks

 

[tcmtech]

Here's how Miller made their HF TIG units years ago.

(Page 5 and forward for schematics. Parts lists at the end.)

https://www.millerwelds.com/files/owners-manuals/O610A_MIL.pdf

The T2 air core HF coupling transformer is made on a 1:1 ratio of 12 - 15 turns each. HV solid core ignition cable for the HV outer layer primary and whatever gauge of cable for the HC inner layer secondary wound on a ~ 1.5" - 2" PVC or other suitable plastic former should suffice for a DIY design.

No point in spending weeks and who knows how much money doing wild ass guessing and poke and hope experimental construction work when abuse internet search gives you every major detail of what you want if you just ask it the right question.

 

[spec]

Here's how Miller made their HF TIG units years ago.

(Page 5 and forward for schematics. Parts lists at the end.)

https://www.millerwelds.com/files/owners-manuals/O610A_MIL.pdf

The T2 air core HF coupling transformer is made on a 1:1 ratio of 12 - 15 turns each. HV solid core ignition cable for the HV outer layer primary and whatever gauge of cable for the HC inner layer secondary wound on a ~ 1.5" - 2" PVC or other suitable plastic former should suffice for a DIY design.

No point in spending weeks and who knows how much money doing wild ass guessing and poke and hope experimental construction work when abuse internet search gives you every major detail of what you want if you just ask it the right question.

The OP posted his question on the 2nd of January 2017. It is now the 10th of January, and 26 posts later. How come you didn't post this wonderful information, which only amounts to a copy of a service manual, in the first place and save everybody the trouble.

So you have a good solution, well lets see a complete schematic with all values shown and see how it tests out.

As for your constant abuse on ETO, when you do not get your own way, I do not know what your problem is. You should realise that you are just another member on ETO however much you may think that you have a superior knowledge to everyone else. As I said before- behave TCM. I know you are a better man than your behavior would indicate.

And for God's sake stop eating raw meat.

spec

 

[tcmtech]

The OP posted his question on the 2nd of January 2017. It is now the 10th of January, and 26 posts later. How come you didn't post this wonderful information, which only amounts to a copy of a service manual, in the first place and save everybody the trouble.

I guess I didn't like the OPs reply and justification for his actions or approach way back so I felt it was worth sitting back and watching this circus play itself out for a while to see if it went anywhere on its own since certain people have thrown fits over my 'pushing my knowledge and experience on them' in other threads in order to try and save them needless wasting of time, money and effort chasing largely irrelevant to the design details.

So you have a good solution, well lets see a complete schematic with all values shown and see how it tests out.

They are in the link and its parts list if anyone bothered to look at them in detail other than the details of the HF air core coupling transformer of which I gave a quick basic written description of how its made.

As for your constant abuse on ETO, when you do not get your own way, I do not know what your problem is. You should realise that you are just another member on ETO however much you may think that you have a superior knowledge to everyone else.

I do as I please when I please for whatever reason I please within the constraints of the forum rules even though given you, and if it's not you it's someone else, tend to throw a fit about what I do and how I do it regardless of whether I share information or I don't as shown here as of lately.

As I said before- behave TCM. I know you are a better man than your behavior would indicate.

I only have to live up to my own standards and expectations (and I do!) as much as it may disappoint others. I'm fickle that way.

Personally I don't know exactly what changed in the internet world but in the last few months it seems that the overall respect and courtesy people show to others has dropped off substantially to where no matter where you go someone is acting like a troll and making life miserable for anyone who doesn't believe or function as they do whether it's justified or not and most of the time is not justified.
Theres no respect, no adherence to scientific or rational facts or general social etiquette from too many now regardless of topic or question.
I do however suspect that US elections outcome and all the selfish petty BS it brought to light in otherwise decent people and general internet practices is likely the source being most every person who has a naturally strong personality and presence in either or both general character or technical capacity is continually the primary targets for getting torn into for whatever they do or say by someone who thinks they have to prove that person is wrong at all costs.
Even if it means repeatedly making themselves look like utter idiots and ******** over things they obviously know nothing about let alone are experienced or experts on, unlike the people they attack have proven themselves to be, to no end. ( not necessarily you so much. You're pretty low on my list in that aspects but don't push it. )

Sorry for bringing politics into this thread to explain my views but it seems to be the #1 thread invasion spillover topic everywhere for every reason lately to justify someone chewing on or attacking someone else for any reason, if you had not noticed ,on any other forums or social sites already.
There are some really bitter and butt hurt people on the internet in every forum now that can be very wearing on me and most everyone else and I won't hide it or from them.

 

[spec]

I guess I didn't like the OPs reply and justification for his actions or approach way back so I felt it was worth sitting back and watching this circus play itself out for a while to see if it went anywhere on its own since certain people have thrown fits over my 'pushing my knowledge and experience on them' in other threads in order to try and save them needless wasting of time, money and effort chasing largely irrelevant to the design details.



They are in the link and its parts list if anyone bothered to look at them in detail other than the details of the HF air core coupling transformer of which I gave a quick basic written description of how its made.



I do as I please when I please for whatever reason I please within the constraints of the forum rules even though given you, and if it's not you it's someone else, tend to throw a fit about what I do and how I do it regardless of whether I share information or I don't as shown here as of lately.



I only have to live up to my own standards and expectations (and I do!) as much as it may disappoint others. I'm fickle that way.

Personally I don't know exactly what changed in the internet world but in the last few months it seems that the overall respect and courtesy people show to others has dropped off substantially to where no matter where you go someone is acting like a troll and making life miserable for anyone who doesn't believe or function as they do whether it's justified or not and most of the time is not justified.
Theres no respect, no adherence to scientific or rational facts or general social etiquette from too many now regardless of topic or question.
I do however suspect that US elections outcome and all the selfish petty BS it brought to light in otherwise decent people and general internet practices is likely the source being most every person who has a naturally strong personality and presence in either or both general character or technical capacity is continually the primary targets for getting torn into for whatever they do or say by someone who thinks they have to prove that person is wrong at all costs.
Even if it means repeatedly making themselves look like utter idiots and ******** over things they obviously know nothing about let alone are experienced or experts on, unlike the people they attack have proven themselves to be, to no end. ( not necessarily you so much. You're pretty low on my list in that aspects but don't push it. )

Sorry for bringing politics into this thread to explain my views but it seems to be the #1 thread invasion spillover topic everywhere for every reason lately to justify someone chewing on or attacking someone else for any reason, if you had not noticed ,on any other forums or social sites already.
There are some really bitter and butt hurt people on the internet in every forum now that can be very wearing on me and most everyone else and I won't hide it or from them.

Once again this this turning into the TCM show, with long dissertations about yourself, your standards, and your point of view. You have annoyed many people on this site, especially OPs and on other sites. It is you who is being rude, not other people as you seem to imagine, and that is what triggered this current discussion.

Once again, your post above is full of personal attacks, and even threats now, and foul language which is a great shame because, in your normal mode, as opposed to your-bee-in-the bonnet mode, you do some great posts and, as we all know, you have a wealth of information. You are also self effacing and have a great sense of humor.

You mention about people making fools of themselves, well I don't like to be unkind but step back and and think how your reactionary posts look.

Sure you can do and say what you like, but within the bounds of the forum rules, as you say, but I think you will find that ETO rules require good manners.

As said before, if you have some information, just post it and leave all the personal insults out- just like everyone else on ETO.

I know it can be very annoying when people do not follow your advice when you are just trying to help, especially if you have put a lot of effort into preparing the information that you post, but that happens to all of us. Most of us just exit the post- I do it all the time.

spec

PS: if you would like to discuss this further, just PM me and I will give you some information that you should know.

 

[Mobius]

Here's how Miller made their HF TIG units years ago.

(Page 5 and forward for schematics. Parts lists at the end.)

https://www.millerwelds.com/files/owners-manuals/O610A_MIL.pdf

The T2 air core HF coupling transformer is made on a 1:1 ratio of 12 - 15 turns each. HV solid core ignition cable for the HV outer layer primary and whatever gauge of cable for the HC inner layer secondary wound on a ~ 1.5" - 2" PVC or other suitable plastic former should suffice for a DIY design.

Thanks for the information. I'm still shooting for this design:

but I'll keep that one as a backup. That is useful information thank you for posting it
I'll talk politics with anyone anytime,
It would be up to the other posters and mods if they are OK with it but I'm cool with it.
Im thrilled with the election in the US (pretty happy about Brexit too) its been like a Disney cartoon with birds landing on my finger singing to me since.

One question though, do you think it would work against me if I filled out my application to MIT in crayon?

 

[DerStrom8]

spec and tcmtech , stop with the arguing or we will be forced to delete your posts and possibly ban you from this thread. If you have useful information for the OP, then please provide it. As for the back-and-forth between the two of you, that needs to stop.

 

[tcmtech]

spec and tcmtech , stop with the arguing or we will be forced to delete your posts and possibly ban you from this thread. If you have useful information for the OP, then please provide it. As for the back-and-forth between the two of you, that needs to stop.

I would be happy to and have even tried to avoid it by not posting anything, but I am not the one doing the continual attacks here. I post or don't post what I feel is relevant and he throws a fit about my attitude and ego or personality or whatever else.

In other threads I posted information and got chewed on for it and now in this thread I don't post information and I get chewed on again for apparently holding it back.

Whether I post or don't I am apparently 'supposed to be a better person than I am' based on some arbitrary standard and definitions I do not adhere to.

 

[DerStrom8]

I would be happy to and have even tried to avoid it by not posting anything, but I am not the one doing the continual attacks here. I post or don't post what I feel is relevant and he throws a fit about my attitude and ego or personality or whatever else.

In other threads I posted information and got chewed on for it and now in this thread I don't post information and I get chewed on again for apparently holding it back.

Whether I post or don't I am apparently 'supposed to be a better person than I am' based on some arbitrary standard and definitions I do not adhere to.

I am talking to both of you. You were both arguing, and that needs to stop. I suggest you both only address the OP and do not speak to or refer to one another in your posts.

 

[tcmtech]

I'll talk politics with anyone anytime,
It would be up to the other posters and mods if they are OK with it but I'm cool with it.
Im thrilled with the election in the US (pretty happy about Brexit too) its been like a Disney cartoon with birds landing on my finger singing to me since.

One question though, do you think it would work against me if I filled out my application to MIT in crayon?

We have the forum break room for those sort of discussions. They rarely go well though and tend to get shutdown due to trolls that can't support their views and reasonings so they just resort to attacking those who can and wrecking up the place by being little more than frustratingly idiotic fools until the thread is shut down.

Like you I am a Trump supporter and am looking forward to what he does in the next few years. Especially knocking certain government agencies and media groups on their butts that got out of hand and overstepped their purpose and place in society during the last few political cycles.

As far as a MIT application filled out in crayon. Why not? I have suspected a number of my former bosses and managers got their jobs despite doing that on the company application forms.

 

[Mobius]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for all of the information provided to date. I have been a little busy but I did build the circuit I referenced above. It produces a nice spark that has no problem jumping 1/4" or slightly more. I have included pics of the work done so far. Please note that the board was much cleaner before I started troubleshooting it. I really wanted to post a "success thread" with a small MPEG showing the weld actually starting, but I am having the same problem that I had before : I cant induce the HF into the welding lead (or any other wires for that matter. I have tried it with the air core , just like the ones in all of the other HF sections of welders that I have seen and it does not work. I am sure that it is something that I am overlooking. If I cant get this configuration to work, I will try some kind of core next.
I also included pics of the rectifier board and the heat sinks because it came together nicely.
Is there anything that jumps out at anyone that I might have overlooked?

OK the server will not allow me to upload any of my pics to the post, it keeps telling me they are too large....... bummer, kind of throws a wet blanket on the whole exchange ideas concept. Ive never seen this before . I will try to figure out the picture problem

 

[Mobius]

OK here are the pics

 

[tcmtech]

A drawn as built and connected to the welder schematic would be a nice reference for us to work with on troubleshooting.

Seems like a lot of fans for a circuit that shouldn't need more than a few watts of power to operate a well.

 

[Mobius]

The schematic is the one I referenced above in post 30 of this thread, but Ill post it here if you guys need it. Yea the individual cooling fans each have 100 amp diodes threaded into the underside of them, which should also blow on the main welding transformer as well. I also have a larger fan above that will wash air over everything if anything gets too hot. The diodes on the fan/heat sinks could see ?? 220 amps at 20 or so volts so they could share a combined load of 4.4kw ?? I doubt Ill use but about 70 amps normally but its nice to have the capacity if its needed.

 

[tcmtech]

The spark gap and 500 pF capacitor need to be switched around with each other.

Also the AC side driver circuit with the single triac and capacitor is still terribly inefficient design that dumps a huge amount of RF noise directly into you home power lines when its running.

Lastly if its not superimposing the HF on the work leads you need to have proper blocking and bypass circuits on your leads between the high current DC source to stop the HF from feeding back to the diodes and to give it a path to follow from one work lead to the other.

 

[dr pepper]

Mine uses a stack of about 10 ferrite torroids inside the coils, about 25mm x 15mm x 10mm.
And H.T. comes from a car ignition coil, as the weld set is vehicle engine driven.
Opposing spark plugs is a cool idea.