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Some simple truths about hydrogen and HHO

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by tcmtech, Apr 24, 2009.

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  1. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    dang you serious ???? As you can see the hydrogen tank is from praxair distribution. That means anyone can go in and rent one too! Its about $28 a year for the lease on the tank and around $25 - $30 for a refill exchange.

    in australia its well over $100 a year rental and over $130 per refill !!!!

    mark
     
  2. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    well that is a LOAD OF RUBBISH :

    But double the compression, change the ignition timing curves, and get a bigger and more aggressive cam profile, and Wow! They can blow themselves apart with the actual power they then can produce!
    that is, they can split the cast aluminum heads, crack pistons, and crush their own connecting rods!
    So it your going to try running the real HHO gas, beef up your engine first or it will be a big disappointment power wise and an expensive rebuild if you don't do it right!


    UNLESS your doin the 1/4 mile in 5 seconds or under , then you`d be worried about splitting heads and blocks.., MAYBE,,

    DOUBLE the compression on a petrol engine , you might as well run diesel......

    double th ecompression on a petrol and you`ll never start it...
     
  3. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    its pretty amazing really, the people that bag hho are the ones that have never tried it...

    and they say , oh the car manufacturers would have done it... well in fact they are doing it now in japan..
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    again , people that have never tried it always TRYING to debunk it....
     
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  6. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    mmm some how i run 4 100 watt spotlights on my car which = about 33 amps , my fuel consumption doesnt change.....

    so why cant i run a hho generator which draws 33 amp or less ? its not gonna draw power that will cut down my engines efficiancy.'
     
  7. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    You may want to compare your relative power ratios first. ;)

    400 watts is is about 2/3's of one HP and most decent vehicle engines are pushing 150 - 250+ HP so that 400 watt load is adding around 1/4 to 1/2 of a percent more load on an engine that has a overall fuel efficiency range that varies from 0 - 25% in normal driving as is.

    Pick up or loose 5 - 10% relative fuel energy conversion efficiency or more and yes you see some real measurable fuel mileage changes. Pick up or loose 1/4 - 1/2% and and its unlikely you will ever notice it. ;)

    If you really have a HHO system that truly works then by all means post some pics specs and design schematics to back up your claims!

    Its all we have ever asked for but have yet to ever receive. :eek:

    Got any valid links to the Japanese vehicle manufactures?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  8. hexreader

    hexreader Member

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    I think you have cracked it!

    If 4 spotlights run without using fuel, fit 4000 spotlights to your car and use the heat to run a small turbine and generator to power an electric motor to run your car once it gets going.

    You will have proven overunity to be real and no HHO required :) :)

    I salute you.

    Would you like to invest $50,000 in my new company to prove your idea? You are certain to get a return at least 1000 times what you put in.

    Email me at i-scam-u-at-ripoff.com and I will give details of the Nigerian bank account where you need to deposit the cash.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
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  9. 4pyros

    4pyros Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Where is your power coming from then???

    Do you need to keep putting batterys in your car?

    How much does that cost?
     
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  10. hexreader

    hexreader Member

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    No, no, no.... We already established that this is free energy.

    Stop polluting this thread with facts. I am expecting to make $50,000 with no effort out of this free-energy idea, and you are messing it up by pointing out the flaws in the argument.

    :) :) :)
     
  11. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Often starvation is a symptom of a corrupt government.
     
  12. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I think all most all of the HHO claims come down to the simple facts that the persons supporting it typically cant do basic math, chemistry or physics that relate to the reality of the common every day activities, and the large amounts of energy that go into them, that we take for granted. :(

    400 watts sounds like a lot when comparing it to multi watt electronics but when you compare it to common vehicle engine that puts out 250 horsepower or more which is (746 x 250 =) 186,500 watts its not enough to matter.

    Then to take it even further if you compare that the 186,500 watts of mechanical energy output number comes from an emmisions compliant engine with a 10 - 20% efficiency you start seeing chemical energy levels from the fuel being put into it running anywhere from 900,000 to 1,900,000 Watts just to get that 186,500 watts of mechanical output! :p

    So yes thats why adding 400 watts of additional load to a system running at an average of 1,400,000 Watts +- 500,000 really doesn't make a difference. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  13. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    You apparently missed the part that I was referring to using common lawn and garden type single cylinder engines, the type that have thin aluminum heads and connecting rods. :p

    Actually any decent automotive engine with a good starter will easily crank over with compression ratios all the way up in the mid teens. I have a Mazda B2600 that I had the head milled to change it from 8:1 compression to 12:1 for propane operation and its stock factory starter has had no problems cranking it over even at -20 F with 10W40 oil. :)
     
  14. 4pyros

    4pyros Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Sorry my bad.

    But do I get half the 50 G's?
     
  15. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Unfortunately I dont think that clueless HHO trolls have that kind of money.:p
     
  16. Mr RB

    Mr RB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, since $50k would buy about a lifetime worth of "free" gasoline anyway. :D
     
  17. krawczuk

    krawczuk New Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2012
  18. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Those links are to real viable hydrogen powered cars not HHO system based cars. Not HHO cars.

    Yes hydrogen as a fuel for both fuel cell power and IC engine power is viable and well known tech and we even have a few running around here as well and we already have one hydrogen fueling station which is owned and operated by the local university agricultural research center where I too can go and get a tank of hydrogen from as well if I have the right tank and paperwork. ;

    I don't think anyone here has ever argued that hydrogen can not power a vehicle. Rather the the issue is that HHO from water being generated by the vehicles own power then fed back into the engine to further power it does not work.

    If you want to prove me wrong hook your HHO generator up to a common automotive alternator and battery system and then drive that alternator from a small engine of your choice then feed the HHO gas back into the engine and see if it runs on its own or if it even uses less gasoline fuel as Believe me I have tried and it does not work. :(

    As far as feeding hydrogen and oxygen into vehicles engine and getting a truely measurable power and mileage increase well I think that effect simply comes from the issue that todays vehicle engines are designed and tuned and designed to run on an air fuel ratio for emissions standards that favors a clean exhaust pipe and not one that produces efficient conversion of fuel energy to mechanical power. So by simply by changing the oxygen level in the incoming air by a percent or two you can effectively change the computers tuning to a perceived A/F ratio that slightly favors the mechanically efficient A/F ratio range over a cleaner one.

    I can assure you that as someone who has worked with engines of all ages and designs I can safely tell you that when it comes to modern emissions compliant designs its possible in some engines to nearly double the power and fuel mileage numbers at the same time just by changing the engine to a setup that favors mechanical efficiency over a supposed clean burning!

    Believe me I have done it myself and am working on doing it to another truck of mine some time this summer.

    I have a 1997 Ford super duty with an emmisions built 460 V8 engine that barely tops 200 HP and 6 MPG highway. I also have a non emmisions 460 I built and ran in another pickup some years ago that with a change of compression, camshaft, intake and exhaust plus a carburetor rejetting pushes the high side of 400 HP and was regularily running the mid teens for fuel mileage. They were the same base engine and similar truck weight and size but by getting as far from the emissions compliant engine setup as I could get things became far more fuel and energy efficient and no HHO was involved! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  19. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    tcmtech:
    You've done a lot of neat stuff.

    I'm with you on the Hydrogen/Oxy flame. I used to do some quartz glasblowing for some semiconductor processes. We used Hydrogen because it was clean. I've also use Oxy/propane and oxy/acetelyne and oxy/MAPP for general stuff.

    We had a "hydrogen explosion" in a lab at work. What had happened is that a safety device had failed making the cylinder appear empty and this happened at a cylinder change time. The use of semiconductor grade Hydrogen required that the regulator and lines be pumped out using a vacuum pump. A portion of that line was rated to about 30 PSI max.

    The operator attempted to open/close the hydrogen cylinder to make sure it was seated and a line in the next room burst open into a large plexiglass hood. There was a large burst of maybe 1500 Lbs of Hydrogen and lots of damage tot he room (ceiling and acrylic projectiles into the wall), but there was no real evidence of a fire. There definitely was an explosion based on the sound.

    The safety system I designed worked, but the Hydrogen detection system was sitting in a box, uninstalled. When the ventilation sensors were either destroyed or covered with ceiling tile dust, the system shut electric solenoids at the cylinder pressure as it was supposed to.

    Changes were made to incorporate an orifice instead of an excess flow valve and the electric solenoid valves were changed to Pneumatic with electric pilot valves, so if a fire erupted in the gas cabinet, the lines would melt, turning off the gas. Purge Nitrogen was placed in a gas cabinet. The other gasses were mostly Hydrides and very nasty.
     
  20. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I have always been the curious and resourceful type and for me 'just because" is not a reason to accept popular beliefs.

    I have to be able to prove or disprove something before I can accept it and given the loads of crap info that is on the internet I can assure you that for me until I do an honest scientifically approached DIY examination generally wont back or deny the concept of anything especially any alternative energy device or system that can supposedly be built by the average person in a garage! ;)
     
  21. CorkyMoo

    CorkyMoo New Member

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    How does a 270 deg. F Hydrox Fuel Torch Raise To 1000's of deg.?

    I have been trying to find some one who could explain this. How does the gases from electrolysis of water burning at what I have seen open air 270 deg. F turn into 1000's of deg.? Any help here would be appreciated! You can pass your hand through the flame. Place it on an object and it gets VERY HOT. HOW?

    Thanks

    I remember in Regents Physics they had all these great formulas. Went up to the teacher and asked him one simple question. What is it between the 2 magnets. He said we do not know. In all the time that has transpired since then they still do not know!

    PS. I know this thread is very old. Just hope some one reads it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
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