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Some simple truths about hydrogen and HHO

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by tcmtech, Apr 24, 2009.

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  1. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    It very well could work and be designed to increase efficiency with huge investment in research, just not economically practical to implement. There are cars sold overseas that get 20+ MPG more than anything you can buy in the states, but because of all the laws and economic weirdness involved it's not financially practical to make and sell them here in the states.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2009
  2. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    Diesel is good, why is it popular in Europe but not North America?
     
  3. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Any one that has owned and driven vehicles built over several decades (60's, 70', 80's, 90', 00's) will know there is something going on at the American auto factories and not for the improvement of fuel economy.
    They boast and proclaim the modern engines and drive trains along with the aerodynamic bodies are the most fuel efficient designs ever created. :mad:

    SO, why do the older vehicles from decades past typically have equal or even better fuel economy Than the new stuff? I know people around here that have old diesel farm pickups built in the 70's and 80's that still get an actual 20+ mpg on the highway but the new diesels pickups cant get half that. :mad::mad:

    I had a 1983 Mercury topaz in high school And I drove it like a high school kid does, Hard and aggressive. I had to pay for may own fuel too so I kept track of the fuel usage and it honestly ran low 30's driving that way and often did around 40 Mpg highway at interstate speeds.
    The new cars weigh a 1000 pounds less and are smaller and have these so called supper efficient engines and aerodynamics but yet they dont get much over the upper 20's and occasionally low 30's if driven like conservative old Lady's owned them.

    Plus ask a truck driver what a 80,000 semi truck gets for fuel mileage. I bet he says not well, maybe 5 - 6 mpg.
    WTF! How come a 6000 pound pickup only gets double that?

    80,000 / 6000 = 13 .33

    So shouldn't a 6000 pound pickup get at least 5 times that? Or 30 -35 mpg? :confused:
    And a 3000 pound car sould be double that yet!

    No auto industry conspiracy my ass!:mad:
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Especially in California (those folks have nothing to do but pass environmental laws) it's the emissions that are the problem. Diesel also still has a big stigma here for being noisy and smelly. Honestly there's no logical reason all cars shouldn't be diesel nowdays.

    Diesel has the simple fact that due to fuel auto igniting almost everywhere in unison rather than the spark setting off a pressure wave causes it to be gads more efficient. But the fuel itself is more expensive and the stereotypes are there, introducing 'new' things to the masses is very hard. The masses tend to stick with what they know no matter how stupid and old it is.
     
  6. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Modern diesels are incredible, drive just like a petrol engine yet give MUCH greater fuel economy - it's the way of the future I suspect. I've been oiut a few times in a BMW One series diesel, only 1.8L and really flys, yet does 60+ miles per gallon. Even our new Ford diesel van really goes well, and Ford have always made the worst diesel engines.

    It's so popular in MAINLAND Europe because it's taxed far less, so it makes good economic sense to own and run a diesel car. In the UK our grabbing government make the tax on diesel HIGHER than petrol, so they don't lose money because of the higher mpg.

    The difference is so great that many large trucks go across to France just to fill up.
     
  7. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    If the US converted to all diesel over night what would they do with the gas though? Can you convert tap car gasoline to diesel by any means?
     
  8. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I think as is blindingly obvious, you couldn't change 'over night', it's a decades long process, people convert gradually as the advantages become so great.

    Another huge advantage, is that diesel is easily created from other sources as well, so it's a fuel which could have life when oil runs out.
     
  9. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    A good friend of mine works for Chrysler and for the European market you can get diesel in their vehicles but not the North American ones. Strangely you can't even order it. All it takes at the factory is the option to be selected.
    I remember years ago Propane was available as an aftermarket option.
     
  10. Diver300

    Diver300 Well-Known Member

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    About 20 years ago, BMW were refusing to sell diesels in the UK, but were selling them in mainland Europe.

    There was too much cost involved in teaching all the dealers how to service them, and getting type approval. I guess that the EU has meant that type approval is Europe-wide, and the electronic fuel injection means that there are no adjustments that the mechanics are allowed to do on either diesels or on petrols and they are just as incompetent at swapping bits on anything.

    But the big mover has been customer demand. I've just been on a diving trip. 5 cars did the journey to the coast. Two small 4x4s, two estate cars and a camper van. All were diesels. All of those were available when new as either petrol or diesel, but all 5 owners had chosen the diesels. The outboard motor is still a petrol, but at least it's now a 4-stroke.

    If 10% of the car-buying Americans emailed Ford/Chrysler/GM and asked to be emailed back when they could buy a diesel model, that would be sooner than if no-one did.
     
  11. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The big three American companies have always made diesel pickups. And all three have had their collective fuel economy dropping since the late 70's.
    A local guy converted his old Chevy diesel over to an industrial diesel back in the late 80's or early 90's. I have met him personally and he is a neighbor of a friend of mine.
    He put in an engine that was rated a fair amount less on HP.
    As driven he said it had more power and far better fuel economy than the stock Chevy diesels ever had. He says to this day he regrets ever selling it. :(

    I have also talked with a guy that works for a friend of mine that had worked for a construction company that went the opposite way. They had a pay loader with a bad engine. They figured that they could save a few dollars and take the diesel engine out of a wrecked company pickup.
    it was rated for considerable more HP than the old industrial engine was.
    They did the refit and found the pickup engine was not any more powerful that the old diesel and worse, it burned more than twice the fuel per day while doing the same job. :mad:

    I did some electrical work on an old commercial generator a local farmer owned that had been switched over to a diesel from a pickup and the owner said it too had more than doubled its fuel consumption with the different engine. :mad:

    I work around commercial and industrial places fairly often and stories like these are common.

    I also drive semi in the fall for harvest season and I do all of the fuel ups on the Volvo truck I drive then. It is licensed for 90,000 # and it spends all day every day crawling around fields and is always loaded full. It too gets over 4 mpg most days and typically closer to 5+ !
    WTF! :confused:
     
  12. colin55

    colin55 Well-Known Member

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    We should hear more from: "sfttailpaul."
    He says his vehicle is fitted with HHO gear. We should ask about the specifications of the additions and see some photos.
    We need to know more his electrolytic cell and the current required to electrolyze the water.
    Of course water injection has been known for years.
    Planes used it during the second world war to increase the power from the engines in an emergency climb.
     
  13. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The old John Deere Tractors did that too. Some of the antique tractor pull guys still do it. Modern tractors in the modified diesel class tractor pulls also use it! And it works!
    Some old school truckers I know through friends of mine said they ran mist injectors on their diesel truck engines after they turned the injection pumps and turbo boost up and ran over sized injectors for more power and better fuel economy many years ago. It helped keep valve and turbo melt downs from happening also.

    I wish more of those old school boys would share their knowledge and secrets before its too late. I am lucky where I live but most dont have clue about who did what decades ago.
    If you want to learn some amazing old school teck that works hang out around a old folks home and pick a few brains while they still have something left to be picked.
    You will get some amazing stories too!
     
  14. colin55

    colin55 Well-Known Member

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    Of course car companies know about increasing fuel efficiency but they are tied to oil companies and no-one wants to introduce a down-turn in sales.
    It's corruption from the top.
    Why is it that no car company offers dual-fuel in a production car?
    Why is it that only Brazil offers 100% ethanol cars?
    And why is it that Thailand or Malaysia is making 100,000 litres per day of ethanol from tapioca when millions are starving in the world?
    The world is in an up-side-down state.
     
  15. colin55

    colin55 Well-Known Member

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    Here's an animation of a fuel cell: (715KB)
     

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    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  16. Diver300

    Diver300 Well-Known Member

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    There is still a very poor perception in the USA of what a diesel car can be like. A few years ago (2003 ish), Landrover took a diesel Rangerover to the USA to show people what a modern diesel was like, let them have drive, etc.

    Most who drove it simply refused to believe it had a diesel engine. As far as they were concerned, if you could hear the radio over the engine noise, see the traffic behind (due to lack of smoke) or get from 0 - 60 this week, it wasn't a diesel.
     
  17. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Bizzare isn't it? - and yet diesel engined cars have won the recent Le Mans 24 hour races, thrashing all the top petrol engined cars.
     
  18. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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    If the process to convert to diesel is less costly it would be a cost benefit for the refineries ( Good for business )

    And I see where the introduction of a crower cycle could be much easier to employ in the design ? Capturing lost heat and potential energy.

    "Benefits or liability" .


    kv
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  19. ericgibbs

    ericgibbs Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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  20. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    Perhaps there's some conspiracy against diesel in the US :rolleyes:

    I agree with Nigel, diesel is the future.
     
  21. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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