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Is black hole just massive particle ?

Discussion in 'Members Lounge' started by vlad777, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    Tell me where I'm wrong, I don't know it all (Nobody does :D quantum theory ). If you have an alternative theory that's compatible with known reality please tell us. Rote learning is knowledge acquisition that creates a baseline to build effective creative thought, that's something that seems missing in todays educational process.
    http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/hi216/learning/bloom.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
  2. april

    april Member

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    My posts are, and always will be, speculation . I am never going to know . No-one can get near one at present speeds of travel available, nor are they likely to ,at any time in the future. I say it is improbable anyone will ever see one up close and personal.

    Interesting that you take a position of " please tell us". in your post , as if you speak for the forum . You have an ego problem there.

    When you go through Uni you are forced rote learn the required answers to achieve a piece of paper that says you have done that.Nothing more . The subject matter is what the teachers think is correct and relevant at the time. You are then expected to analyse and improve upon or disprove some aspect of that that you choose to look at more closely . Well thats the smart way of doing it in my opinion.
     
  3. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I've got the ego problem so tell 'me' your theory based on speculation of how the jets are created.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. april

    april Member

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    Look back to the post you decided to answer and perhaps re-read it if you would .

    When cosmologists analyse an object with size like a lemon you use normal gravity based physics and maths.
    When they wish to look to the very small they use quantum maths.
    Cosmologists are now attempting to marry the two for a better understanding of cosmology.

    When you do this, the equations produced suggest that, gravity changes from attractive to repulsive under extreme pressure.
    They now hold the view that there was something before the "big bang" and in fact there was no "big bang", rather there was an "inflation" from something that was there before but was compressed down to almost nothing.

    There was a BBC program produced about this in depth in 2010 called "what happened before the big bang" or something like that.I have not the time to search for it for you.

    You can do the research on that ("inflation") , I just suggest what I think is happening all the time somewhere or other , right or wrong
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  6. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    I've read a few articles about "inflation" and it's a fascinating theory. http://pirsa.org/11070029/
     
  7. april

    april Member

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    I'm curious about this picture from NASA
    http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/hubble-eyes-a-mysterious-old-spiral/#.UfRBHunB7bk
    The chances of there being other intelligences out there would be enhanced by a galaxy having an older age.


    This one is 100 million light years away from us.So if we detected say a radio signal from it , that would be 100 million years old . So even if they attempted to come here and could get to 1/2 the speed of light it would take 200-400 million years one way so they are not likely to invade anytime soon.

    What I am intrigued with is the stage of evolution of this galaxy.
    If a spiral galaxy is a young galaxy and a lenticular one is older than that,then what does a galaxy at the end of its life look like? A dull spheroid? Would we even be able to see it?

    If so then it fits nicely with my assertion that all galaxies are in a cyclic behaviour like a heartbeat with all the matter rushing out in an inflationary cycle stopping at some point and then the matter goes to a deflationary phase and all rushes in again. All to some magic point and size, obviously centered around a supermassive black mass , it is somehow changed and all starts rushing out again.

    A cycle lasting maybe 100 billion earth years and up depending on the total mass in the galaxy.

    It at least suggests that we should restrict our search for other intelligences to the milky way only as anything else is probably pointless. That is unless some way to send messages many times faster than light turns up which does not seem likely to me..

    Cosmologists that I have read seem to think the universe is in this cyclic behaviour but I think thats wrong . I think its just the galaxies doing so individually and unfetted by the universe . Hence collisions of galaxies become possible.

    Of course for the thinkers out there it only poses the ultimate question of what is the universe and what created that or where did it come from or why is it even there ? Doesn't help us much .Could be a big bar of chocolate particles. Yummy
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  8. april

    april Member

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    So here is another one . This is a picture toward the center of the Milky Way
    http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130817.html
    I'm wondering if this is what an expansion event might look like at some stage toward its own outer extreme limit at which point it starts to fall back in .
    They seem to imply the stars are in this thing but I doubt that .
    I think they will be in a direct line of our sight and in front of, or behind, this thing.
    If so that might indicate that this expansion contraction of supermassive black mases might be going on inside individual galaxies.
    It would take a lot of time for 2 supermassive black masses to get to a stage where they collide with each other . Perhaps even enough for an expansion (inflation) and compression event to take place.(100 Billion years?)

    My other thought was what it might look like when the two collide ? I'd imagine a bit like a black glove around a black baseball, as matter would not likely be exploded out very far from either . Imagine the shock waves through both. Fascinating thought , imagining what must happen but not ,ever, being able to see it.
     
  9. april

    april Member

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    An interesting development from a new astronomy telescope seeming to offer further advances in our knowledge of star formation and consequentially supermassive black mass (SMBM) development. The nearest SMBM is of course in our own galaxy and is probably a bit far off yet to get this detail on at 25,000 light years away . This star is only 1400 light years away .
    http://phys.org/news/2013-08-alma-drama-starbirth.html


    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-telescope-probes-young-protostar.html
    This is an interesting paragraph in that page:-

    So they "think" thats what happens, because they know it must happen to satisfy what we actually see up there. OK so the possibility of polar jets out of SMBM's gets very plausible .The Catherine wheel (firework) effect gives the galaxy its spin and two tails spiraling out so at some point momentum must push it in one direction or the other and once moving the jets speed it up.

    From this site I also see an interesting statement that Sagittarius A may be our milky way SMBM.

    http://casswww.ucsd.edu/archive/public/tutorial/MW.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  10. april

    april Member

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    On a daily basis we are being fed more and more from science media about black holes being just everywhere and it seems obvious to me theyare a fundamental galaxy building block . No black hole , no galaxy.

    http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...nova-gamma-ray-burst-20131120,0,2161505.story

    The other interesting thing is that well established and accepted theories are falling at a rapid rate too
     
  11. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    There are other theories about the nature and limits of synchrotron radiation when the current polarization changes are FTL in total effect.
    http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=29949

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/0908.1349.pdf

    This theory assumes it's not that more energy is created but the level of energy we detect from these types of sources seems to be so much greater because of the time domain "sonic boom" compression of the EM waves and the lack of inverse-square law dispersion over long distances.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
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  12. april

    april Member

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    A little way back I noted the jet from the poles and some discussion and disagreement was had.
    This site has a recent xray and radio shot of OUR supermassive black mass Sagittarius A
    Thats the one at the center of the milky way
    To seee what they think is a jet go to the site and its marked on the image
    http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2013/sgra/

    sgra_w11.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  13. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    Nice: From the Press Release
     
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  14. april

    april Member

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    Looking at this picture of Saturns polar region I start to wonder what would cause the outer pattern to form a hexagon ? It seems circular forces are in play to at least half way out . The hexagonal pattern however seems to extend almost to the rim . I wonder if it could be an optical illusion like looking down a kaleidoscope? It resembles the image produced by a 60 degree mirror set complete with black edges

    http://kaushalgrade10optics.wikispaces.com/Kaleidoscopes
    pia17652-1-762x428.jpg
    http://news.sky.com/story/1178090/saturns-hexagon-mega-storm-seen-by-cassini
    pia14946-1-762x428.jpg
    This one given at a more obtuse angle

    This can be assumed to be real if NASA can be assumed to be truthful which is a big stretch of my trust rules.
    However assuming it is real , something causes it which is not yet known to our cosmologists.
    I suggest a supermassive black mass would have many more unknowns like this and many that will never be known by us.

    I'd like to know what the blue splash is too , maybe a whale? There seems to be a moon passing too at the bottom but this might be a storm inside the storm. It gets trickier and trickier . I wonder if this pulls the edges to be hexagonal? Maybe it has a fast eliptical orbit.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  15. april

    april Member

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    On the jet issue I would expect to see a jet on the other side equally considering I think it comes from inside and is squeezed out by the supermassive pressures.
    Looking at the apparent size and direction of what they point to as a jet I don't think it is . If it were matched on the other side by "something" I might agree but not the case here
     
  16. april

    april Member

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    You know there is a lot of fantasy being put out by the scientific comunity and they should be ashamed of themselves for misleading people . Below we have a news event on BBC and a video which obviously is just a simulation someone has dreamed up and its front page stuff?

    We cant see a black hole (supermassive black mass) and we certainly can´t see our galaxy´s so why produce this ?
    We don´t really know even where to look but this article makes it look like a done deal -Crazies.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25663620
     
  17. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    It's not a complete fantasy: http://www.space.com/21992-gas-cloud-ripped-black-hole-images.html

    OT:
    How's the summer down south. I was down in your way on a exercise at the Shoalwater Bay Military Training Area years ago. I traveled up the reef by ship from Sydney on route to Mindanao in the Philippines. I loved the area.

    Here is a photo of us refueling the HMAS Brisbane on the way there.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/stubzee/2186026597/in/photostream/
    http://www.nsaspook.com/hp2.gif
    http://www.nsaspook.com/hp3.gif
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  18. april

    april Member

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    Thanks for the entertainment- You took whats called the outside route up the reef and by the looks of the company you had to.There´s an inside route much closer inshore that Cook followed to his peril. I cruised around Cuba and Cozumal about 4 years back . Had a ball.Spent some years around Jarvis Bay ,Huskisson area just south of Shoalwater bay. A bit cold for me in the winter. Our winter in Cairns is much nicer and if I go south it is only in the Summer . Its been very hot here while freezing over there? Wonder if there is a mutual cause.

    On the Pic I had not seen that . I add it here and ,to be honest, it could be anything, anywhere and at almost anytime these days .We can see so far back in time. How many millions of light years has that light been travelling and what lensing or other phenomena has it encountered. My reading tells me they think the center is in that general direction but who´s to say for sure.
    Whatever it is though it seems to be moving very rapidly and I suppose they settled on that as being the probable cause. Maybe so. Could be a lensing or other effect too. The colours are just to identify the different dates .
    Fascinating stuff


    gas-cloud-ripped-black-hole.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  19. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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    The map doesn't show it but we took the inside route and had to constantly be on the lookout for pleasure craft with sun-bathing topless girls blocking our progress. The ships (Helo carrier group) all had small draft hulls and some were designed to sit right on the beach to unload.

    The ESO page has better information and videos of the events than the simple PR releases.
    http://www.eso.org/public/usa/news/eso1332/

    Focus laser.
    potw1036a.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  20. april

    april Member

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    From
    http://news.sky.com/story/1193065/new-hand-of-god-picture-taken-by-nasa

    ¨The Hand of God B1509 ¨ Nasa says is 17,000 light years away.
    ¨The star has collapsed so much, Nasa says it is only 12 miles across and incredibly dense.
    When it collapsed, it also caused an explosion which cast gas and material out into space.(Hmm? How so)
    It revolves at seven times a second and in doing so it throws out huge amounts of sub-atomic particles in streams.¨
    ---but of much interest to me is---
    ¨It has an intense magnetic field at its surface, estimated to be 15 trillion times stronger than the Earth's magnetic field.¨

    15 Trillion times ? Crikey! So whats that then 15 Billion times the suns? or in american a billion is 1000 million maybe 15 Million times the sun
    Its a bloody lot anyway
     
  21. nsaspook

    nsaspook Well-Known Member

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