Is black hole just massive particle ?

[april]

I have been contemplating for some time the possibility that a supermassive sun could at some point accumulate enough matter to actually cool sufficiently on the outside sphere to create a cool mantle.

Not unlike our own planet but with its insane gravity still increasing . It might look like this but in normal light not shaded views..
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130413.html

Matter would still be extremely compressed and a planet sized asteroid hitting it would be a bit like an egg hitting a hot frypan but say a micron or less thick.

I also wonder if matter goes from solid to liquid when heated and plasma at some point ,is there a next state? Maybe gaseous but compressed so much as to be something else entirely.. I am aware off how a shaped charge with a copper cone pointed base to the object to be blown up turns to plasma when exploded and is injected straight through that object

 

[april]

The core of our planet is hotter than thought
About the same temp as the surface of the sun.
So if the temp at the center of the sun is a billion times hotter what temperature is at the middle of a Supermassive Black Sun ?
Say a Billion Billion times the temp at the center of our sun?
I wonder if there is an upper limit?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22297915

 

[april]

These two colliding galaxies have the combined mass of 10 Billion of our suns . I would suggest a lot more . A supermassive black sun at the center of each.
It would be turmoil in there as everything collides and finds a new stable orbit. 330 million light years away so what we see now is 330 million years old , it happened like this 330 million years ago . Takes 300 thousand years just to travel from one side to the other of it at the speed of light


https://www.chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2013/ngc6240
A bit like splitting the atom but with two equally big particles?

 

[ericgibbs]

hi april,
I believe our galaxy is due to collide with the Andromeda galaxy one day.


https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/milky-way-collide.html

E

 

[april]

Yes Eric , before I go to bed each night on board I always check to make sure it is not going to happen that night. It makes me laugh that in such a scenario the "experts" confidently predict the outcome.

It is likely the sun will be flung into a new region of our galaxy, but our Earth and solar system are in no danger of being destroyed.

 

[tvtech]

I am impressed april

If I remember correctly...you had the most Red I have ever seen on this site. Now you are on Green. That must have been some seriously hard work on your side.

Regards,
tvtech

 

[april]

On the sea of life I leaned a little to port.
Now a starboard tack ,for how long who can say ,it lies with the big wind's whim

 

[tvtech]

On the sea of life I leaned a little to port.
Now a starboard tack ,for how long who can say ,it lies with the big wind's whim

May the wind be forever at your back.
May your sails always be full.
May ETO be forever at your side.

Regards,
tvtech

 

[MrAl]

Hello there tvtech,

Has this turned into a poetry thread now? <chuckle>

Query: "What sadness lengthens Romeo's hours?"
Reply: "Not having that, which having, makes them short".

One of my favorite quotes.

 

[tvtech]

Hello there tvtech,

Has this turned into a poetry thread now? <chuckle>

Query: "What sadness lengthens Romeo's hours?"
Reply: "Not having that, which having, makes them short".

One of my favorite quotes.

LOL MrAl

Regards,
tvtech

 

[april]

Someone at APOD/NASA must be watching this thread . Just seems too much of a coincidence .
Iv'e seen it before but it's beautiful and fascinating none the less
Two Galaxies colliding and no damage they say

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130514.html ( Its a video btw)


EDIT - I was reading this NASA page relating to the collision of two galaxies one dwarf and one giant.
I fear then a 6 million degree wave passing would probably fry me pretty well.

An image combining X-rays and optical light shows the scene of this collision. The impact between the dwarf galaxy and the spiral galaxy caused a shock wave − akin to a sonic boom on Earth – that generated hot gas with a temperature of about six million degree

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/multimedia/dwarf-spiral-collision.html#.Ug0ya-mRLHl

 

[april]

Repeatedly we see statements that the Universe is expanding , incidentally , from the one spot.
Then researchers make statements such as are on this page

https://www.popularmechanics.co.za/science/centres-of-biggest-galaxies-are-growing-denser/

“But if you have two roughly comparable galaxies and they are on a collision course, each one penetrates more toward the centre of the other, so more mass ends up in the centre,” Bolton says.

Other recent studies indicate stars are spread more widely within galaxies over time, supporting the idea that massive galaxies snack on much smaller ones.

“We’re finding galaxies are getting more concentrated in their mass over time even though they are getting less concentrated in the light they emit,” Bolton says.
- See more at: https://www.popularmechanics.co.za/...xies-are-growing-denser/#sthash.45bxIN9A.dpuf

Pretty obvious contradictions as in an expanding universe there would be no reason for collisions so one or other or both are wrong

 

[april]

Back to the original title.
I think all objects start from a single perticle . In space particles tend to cluster together and as an object gathers particles it gathers size and gravitational attraction . With size it gathers more particles and as they come in they are falling and impart a spin force in one direction or another to the center particle. Over time the direction of travel and size of the incoming material determine how fast and in which direction the center spins.

It is conceivable then that at various times in its lifetime objects spin in different directions or at different rates due to say asteroids hitting or other planet size objects or moons colliding with it

When enough material is accumulated the center core starts heating up much as the earth is now . As more material comes in that heat increases due to pressure and if it is lucky enough to survive it might become a sun or part of one. Again as this continues it might become a supermassive black mass in the long run or part of one.

Nothing is created or destroyed in the universe it is said (although the creation and loss of heat is for another page and I think more examples might be found) .

So I wonder if the pressure at the center becomes such that jets of material are ejected from the poles of each supermassive black mass and these fall back in over and over again forever. Material ejected out would be white and hot and visible at some point outside the gravitational forces of the object and easily seen. Material falling in would be cold and lifeless dark matter and harder to discern until it gathers enough material to form a sun again.

The size direction and spin of incomings would obviously determine their effect on the central object and trigger supernovas and the other phenomena we see today.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130715.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130704.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130620.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap040908.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011029.html

 

[nsaspook]

So I wonder if the pressure at the center becomes such that jets of material are ejected from the poles of each supermassive black mass and these fall back in over and over again forever. Material ejected out would be white and hot and visible at some point outside the gravitational forces of the object and easily seen. Material falling in would be cold and lifeless dark matter and harder to discern until it gathers enough material to form a sun again.

As we currently understand black holes that would be impossible. The only known way a black hole can lose mass and energy is from quantum evaporation.

 

[april]

Yes thats what is proposed today. The weak points of gravity can be seen from a study of the paths of ejecta on the sun. This seems to me to be the poles . So if it is going to go anywhere it will go there.

No one has seen a black hole from close enough to be able to observe this as yet and nothing can be observed like a sun ejection but those must still go on unseen

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130312.html

 

[nsaspook]

Yes thats what is proposed today. The weak points of gravity can be seen from a study of the paths of ejecta on the sun. This seems to me to be the poles . So if it is going to go anywhere it will go there.

No one has seen a black hole from close enough to be able to observe this as yet and nothing can be observed like a sun ejection but those must still go on unseen

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap130312.html

That matter is not coming from inside the black hole in the picture, it's just falling matter that is twisted in the strong magnatic field external to the black hole and heated.

https://www.space.com/18494-black-holes-magnetic-fields-spin.html

 

[april]

After thinking on this overnight there are a couple of points I have difficulty with in your post

Firstly the word "Impossible" . Bad way to use it . Perhaps "improbable" would be better in your statement because you imply you know rather than the truth which is you speculate.

Secondly the image you refer to is an artist's impression guided by someones thoughts of what it might look like . There are a few of these artworks around now and each is different. The one I tried to find shows white plasma streaming from the poles but I could not find that. If I do I will post it here and in fact I may have posted it here before I will have to go look .

In that rendition the artist does not say what the streams are or which way they go so I wonder at your absolute statement that they "go in".No-one knows as yet. I thank you for the site you linked to and I will have a good read of that .

However the first thing I notice is the statement

That mess makes a little more sense to scientists now, thanks to a new computer simulation that shows how the spin of a black hole can align with the doughnut of material orbiting it, as well as with the superfast jets that fly out of it. - See more at: https://www.space.com/18494-black-holes-magnetic-fields-spin.html#sthash.51YFRboz.dpuf

My emphasis.

From a quick look through the posts on that site all seem to point at matter being ejected out from the poles . See here https://www.space.com/17792-monster-black-hole-energy-jet-source.html

Ohh and if you are a believer in quantum physics thats the theory that determines the probability of black being white is 98% , right? That does not leave but 2% for the truth, hey?

 

[nsaspook]

It's impossible with the known physics of this universe for the jets to be emitted from something inside the black hole and then move past the event horizon. There are several ways the jets could form from matter falling in to a black hole but all the current theories are based on interactions outside the event horizon.

A black hole is a very messy eater, explained Shep Doeleman, an astronomer with MIT's Haystack Observatory and the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. Focusing all of the matter, gas, dust and gravitational field surrounding a black hole into an incomprehensibly tiny region creates a sort of "cosmic traffic jam."

"Think about trying to suck an elephant through a straw," Doeleman said.

Near the black hole, that traffic jam causes matter to break down into its most basic parts and particles to rub up against each other, creating friction. The temperature of the gas heats to billions of degrees, which causes the above-mentioned jet to flame out of the black hole's poles and spray across the galaxy close to the speed of light. The jet can be hundreds of times more powerful than all of the stars in the galaxy combined, said Roger Blandford, director of the Kavli Institute for Particle Physics and Cosmology, and also an author on the paper.

**broken link removed**


A particle with a rest-mass of zero moves at c, a particle with a rest mass like a electron can't be accelerated to c with all the energy of the universe.
https://www.school-for-champions.com/science/gravitation_escape_velocity_black_hole.htm

Thus, the escape speed equation for a Black Hole is:

se = √(2GM/R) > c

This equation means that when the values of M and R for a celestial object are such that √(2GM/R) is greater than the speed of light, nothing can escape the body—not even light.

I would think you would need to study a little more about QM as the 'black being white' question is silly.

 

[april]

Hmm Ok won't be told , I know it all type . No room for anything but rote there.

 

[april]

Delete duplicated