UK Primeminister discovers ebay

[large_ghostman]

David Cameron has finally worked out how to use a laptop and has found ebay!

So whats his first purchase?

A bloody Chinese Nuclear Reactor!! So its official the UK no longer has the manufacturing base or know how to build a world class nuclear reactor, instead the french and Chinese will build it and we will buy the electric from it! £25bn to supply 5m homes.
Seeing as ALL project go at least 50% over budget did no one get a calculator out and discover its cheaper to make those 5M homes off grid and green? Utter disgrace. I am for Nuclear energy but sad we no longer have the smarts or factories to build them.

Maybe he should have brought a toaster off them first or a TV, but I guess at least he's getting free shipping on it. I hope he has paid by paypal

 

[jpanhalt]

He needs help learning how to search: **broken link removed**

John

 

[SuperSpit]

Indeed, it is a most interesting visit.

I will most interested to see what other engineering will be exchanged between China and the UK. I hope Chinese high speed rail gets some attention here - it is quite impressive stuff. China is beginning to shake off its cheap, low quality engineering and is starting to mix comfortably with the 'big players', much as Japan did decades ago. What is particularly intriguing is how China will develop over the next few decades - it is well known for playing the long game politically.

I think getting the Chinese and French reactors will be marvelous.

 

[jpanhalt]

To be a little more serious, I have not associated China's science or engineering in the 20th century and later to be at the forefront of innovation. What it has been very good at is taking something on the cutting edge and reducing it to practical, high-volume production. I am disappointed that UK scientists and energy industry are not more advanced than to rely on Chinese ingenuity.

John

 

[SuperSpit]

Interesting point

To be fair, China enjoys a kind of stability that is rather rare in the west, where policies are planned on the long term scale - in multiples of decades and not months between elections. However, this is something of a cop-out argument. I would probably argue that we as a nation are simply not able to/do not want to invest in nuclear. I believe we were the first nation to implement civil nuclear power (welcome to be corrected on this lol!), yet somewhere along the line this stagnated. One possible reason is that we are simply too small physically for nuclear power plants to be placed anywhere without being too close to people who fear them, for whatever reason. There is a rather strong selection of degrees in Nuclear energy areas offered by a selection of UK universities - which are recognised internationally. So it is not like we aren't producing people capable of designing them.

Perhaps it is simply that it is too hard for a UK based company to start building reactors. When you are trying to break into any established industry, especially something as expensive, time consuming and regulated as nuclear energy, you are gonna have a hard time. Why waste time/money in investing in a company where the French have already designed and built proven, safe, cheap designs that are established in France and exported worldwide? And coupled with co-operation from Chinese companies that have experience in producing and manufacturing in a range of standards - yes including a percentage of higher and higher quality stuff, it is only logical to outsource these. Especially when exchange rates are waaaay in your favour. It wouldn't surprise me if at least a sizeable chunk of people involved in these projects will be educated and born in the UK. Just the company that employs them will be foreign. How bad that is, is more down to personal opinion - I think.

 

[ronsimpson]

If your reactor was designed and built in the UK and things go wrong the layers will have work for years.
If your reactor was designed and built in China and things go wrong, they will take the head of production out in the parking lot and shoot him. Now that he is dead, all blame is on him. And the layers have nothing to do.

 

[jpanhalt]

One simply cannot rely on "specifications" to fully define what the resulting product will be. In the US a few years ago, Mattel had a specification for Barbie dolls and her accessories. That specification did not state that lead-based paint could not be used. I presume Mattel assumed that lead paint would not be used. However, it was not specified, and the Chinese company went ahead and used lead-based paint. It was cheaper and, possibly even a better paint (https://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/business/02toy.html?_r=0).

We have all learned that "made to our rigid specifications" for products flooding markets through outlets like Harbor Freight and its UK equivalents means nothing. Ever try to get those "specifications?" I hope your PM has not sacrificed expediency for safety. It would be a terrible shame if UK laws prevented the building of a UK-designed power plant and it consequent jobs, but did not interfere with a contracted, foreign builder. Simply put, I just can't believe that our British colleagues do not have the expertise to do it themselves better.

John

 

[ronsimpson]

I just can't believe that our British colleagues do not have the expertise to do it themselves better.

Yes the British colleagues do have good nuclear engineers. I just got fish and chips from him. "Do you want a coke with that?"
----edited----
Said by yet another under-employed engineer.

 

[jpanhalt]

Very sad, but ironically too true.

John

 

[SuperSpit]

With respect, I feel comparing the mass production of toys and what will ultimately be one custom made design and construction of a nuclear power plant are somewhat different. Let's not forget that this is a French-Chinese consortium, and that if nothing else, the French have shown that they design and manage nuclear power exceedingly well. I am no expert in power plant design, but I cannot imagine it is something that isn't very precisely regulated by third parties.

I cannot think of any UK laws that prevent a UK based company building a reactor. What I was trying to ask, is why anyone in the UK would want to try to build a reactor when foreign companies with proven success and a relatively wide custom base in a very niche and regulated market already do so? Putting cost aside, surely using a design from the experienced French would be safer and more reassuring than constructing your own first attempt?

Lastly, and as much as it pains me to say it, if several of our once leading edge high tech industries could be used as examples, it doesn't really surprise me that we don't have the capability or the willpower to do such projects ourselves anymore. Good examples include putting the first man in space in the 40's using modified V2 rockets, or the decimation of the aircraft industry neatly defined by giving away jet propulsion technologies or TSR 2 - the latter two being due to more political pressure from the US. History is just repeating itself, as it inevitably seems to do.

Edit: Not sure if ron's post is serious or not, but... In the UK we are actually desperate for engineers. From what I've glanced online, it seems the opposite is the case in the US, but certainly there is much talk of a shortage of engineers in the UK.

Edit 2: It just struck me that we are the only country to have developed the ability to launch stuff into orbit and then give it up. That's the kind of thing that happens here. :|

 

[JimB]

There was an expression used in the first World War to describe the "structure" of the British Army...

"Lions lead by donkeys"

Lions - the poor old tommy in the trench, getting shot at every day.

Donkeys - the staff officers back in HQ safely behind the lines, ordering them "over the top" in another futile charge.

And so it is with British industry.
What happened to the car industry? Most of the traditional British makes have disappeared, yet we have a successful motor industry with names like Nissan, Toyota. Jaguar/LandRover is doing well, owned by Indians, how does that work? Why couldn't we do it ourselves?

We have the engineering, but the management and political/government backing is the bit which is lacking.

JimB

 

[SuperSpit]

imo British industry is something that is/was often expensive for what you got. Of course, people constantly say "we'd buy British if the option was there" but this simply isn't the case. What killed the British motor industry? Cars like the Morris Marina, Lady Riva and Reliant Robin which were relatively expensive, with bad handling and of poor construction. If you then went to a another dealership, you had the option of a variety of nice shiny Fords. Of course, a few outliers exist like the mini, but I don't think we can say that overall the British motor industry in the 70s was something that was of particular high quality.

Jaguar/LandRover being owned by Indians comes down to some guy selling it to the highest/best bidder, which only makes sense. Who wouldn't want to make a decent buck for their company?

What we do excel in at the moment (technologically) is high end research, and some one off areas. Sectors that produce money because of their quality, rather than demanding money for sub-par-ness.

We have the engineering maybe, but you also (sadly) need the financial reasoning to add up. I can't imagine people being too happy if you were to accept a bid that was straight off the bat 2x as much as that from another proven bidder, just because it was British.

 

[ronsimpson]

Not sure if ron's post is serious or not

Ron was not joking (maybe a little).
I wrote a long story about 100s of old engineers I know but then hit "delete".

 

[large_ghostman]

Thats my point, as a country we make nothing. Everything in the UK is designed as a service around our main business sector (banking), I listened to prime ministers questions on TV yesterday and he was asked by an MP if any of the work would go to UK companies. He was asked for example if the recently closed steel mills would be opened and supply steel, he fudged the whole question to such a degree he might as well just said NO.

So the British taxpayer will pay around £40bn (yes the quote is 25bn but name one thing thats ever been on budget), they are saying it will have a 60 year life span, yet all nuclear power plants get switched off after 40 max. So the people buying the electric will have pay it back on the electric bill, so £40bn/5m people/ 40 years, thats before you even start adding profit and running costs etc.
I have threads on here telling you I havnt done a single practical experiment in science at school for 12 months! What happens is we are shown an experiment as a power point presentation and copy it down. For me its so sad that my future is likely to be the guy serving the chips and asking if you want coke with it, not because I dont work hard and not because I dont want a decent job, but where will I work? We dont have an industry anymore and the companies we do have are all foreign.

What happens if the reactor fails? do you think the UK is going to stand upto China and demand they put things right? What happened to all that BS before the election about China's human rights violations? I prefer the USA political system where they put bullets in the politicians they dont like.

We have a shameful lying ******* of a minister who unless something is done will utterly destroy mine and others futures, dont get me wrong I cant tell any of them apart! if it wasnt for the colour of there rosettes I wouldnt have a clue what party they were members of.

 

[SuperSpit]

I don't see how getting so emotional solves anything. It certainly doesn't allow for proper reasoning and assessment of anything.

This may surprise you, but a lack of practical science experiments in schools will reflect what university will be like, and is what reflects a lot of engineering and science today. Simply put, as an engineer or scientist you will be more likely to be doing a lot of programming maths, a great deal of simulation work, and a lot of design work - very little practical stuff. As an engineer, you are supposed to design something, not build it. One could argue that physically prototyping something on a breadboard teaches you more than theory - but it shouldn't. You need to rely on the perhaps somewhat 'boring' act of reading what someone else has done in a paper (which is more often than not mostly maths) and utilising that in a design. Yes of course there is a physical aspect to research, but there are very very few areas where money can be spent on doing something just to see what happens. Mostly, physical experiments are preceded by weeks/months/years of reading what others have done and interpreting the results. Personally, I would like to see more practical stuff done in schools, but when you take a step back from the 'it's fun' argument, what else is there?

I think it is unfair to simply use the claim that it will run over budget by such an amount, immediately doesnt justify the project. Do you think if a UK based company was building it, it would a) start off as low, and b) not exceed the budget? Ha. Of course, such projects often run over budget, but that's what happens when you build stuff. So are we in favour of spending money on real life applications of engineering/science or not? Also, I would be inclined to believe the most recent lifespan estimates. What must be remembered is that in the UK, nuclear power station technology has stagnated - so it is somewhat unfair in my opinion to be basing your judgement on out of date technology. It's like saying this year's F1 car won't reach 100mph because F1 cars in the 70's had a max speed of 60mph.

I don't see how putting bullets into anyone will solve problems. Are you really up for the murder of democratically elected persons? Every country has things we like/dislike about them. Some more so than others. But would you base everything you did with a country on one of the ways it runs? To a large number of people in the UK, the US gun culture is obscene (note: lets not turn this into the topic - agree/disagree I'm just using it to prove a point), yet we do not allow that to get in the way of our often close relationship. To a large number of people in the UK, parts Australian immigration policy is somewhat aggressive - but again we don't let that one issue interfere with our entire relationship.

Re your last comment - again emotions seem to be clouding your logic. How has a deal with France and China to build one nuclear power station ruined your future? In the UK, we are incredibly lucky to have free school education until we are 18, in Scotland you have free higher education in universities, England and Wales require you to pay through a student loan (which isn't really a loan as you do not pay anything until you are earning a very comfortable wage) but even our tuition fees are pennies compared to the likes of the USA. As I have mentioned, the UK science and engineering sector are actually short of engineers and scientists, so I don't see why if you work hard and get a degree, you won't find it reasonably easy to get a job in engineering/science. If you end up serving cokes, then that is most likely down to choices you have made.

I think the biggest problem with your argument is that is assumes that the construction/heavy industry is the engineering/science sector, which although are somewhat close in their end goals, are not the one and same.

 

[ericgibbs]

I am concerned that the OP, a school boy [?] who does not yet pay taxes or is not old enough to vote, posts such uninformed rhetoric regarding our democratically elected Government.

Fortunately for the OP, freedom of speech is a right in our country, in many other countries he would be not so lucky.

If he wants to change Government policy, I suggest he waits until he grows old enough to vote and perhaps takes a career in politics.

In the mean time he should show more respect to his elders.

E

 

[Dr_Doggy]

all i know is:
Try buying a oscilloscope from there, the one i have crashes the firmware when i press the auto trigger button.
Another favorite purchase of mine is the cell phone wrist watch, which only accepts special china SD cards.

on the bright side, we can expect that the reactor will have enough lead in it.

 

[SuperSpit]

Dr Doggy, may I ask which oscilloscope that is? Because if it is one of the cheap ones, I wouldn't be surprised to find a dodgy oscilloscope for those prices from anywhere in the world.

What about the newly released bits of kit, like the Rigol DSA875TG? A superb bit of Chinese kit that, if it isn't with them, is snapping at the heels of the big brands like Keysight et al. I'm not saying all Chinese engineering is perfect, my point is that much like most of the West in the middle of the 20th century, and Japan in the 80's, China is starting to grow out of the 'everything is nasty and unsafe' phase. If you insist that anything Chinese is bad, and that everything made in the [insert western country here] is good, then you will miss out on some real opportunities.

The parallel with Japan is astounding, and although Japan's economic boom was largely thanks to generous US policy, the progress from cheap mass produced stuff to becoming world leaders in software and computer hardware is astounding, and is something that we would all be foolish to not learn from.

 

[ericgibbs]

The parallel with Japan is astounding, and although Japan's economic boom was largely thanks to generous US policy, the progress from cheap mass produced stuff to becoming world leaders in software and computer hardware is astounding, and is something that we would all be foolish to not learn from.

hi SS,
You are correct, at one time everything coming from Japan was deemed to be a cheap copy, not any more.!

I would say our policy of developing trade agreements with China will lead to long term benefits for the UK.

E

 

[JimB]

The reason so much stuff from China is cheap rubbish is because that is what we ask them to make, and then we buy it in ever increasing quantities.

Many large well established and highly regarded Western companies outsource their production to China. Apple for instance.
All the aficionados of the iThis and iThat are enamoured with their devices.
I guess that Apple tell the Chinese EXACTLY what they want built, inspect to see that what is delivered is what was ordered, and if it falls short the Chinese do not get paid.
Just how it should be in a good product.

60 years ago, the UK was up at the front in the development of nuclear power, now we are an also ran. A great pity, but that is the way that it is.

JimB