So what really is this "breaboard noise" all about :)

[Bracer]

I am currently experimenting with a single microcontroller powering up a number of LEDs.

There are still yet more LEDs but as they are supposed to be on all the time, they are connected directly to the main via a resistor without utilizing the microcontroller pins.

It seems to me that every now and then the PIC will fail to work, probably because there are just too many LEDs driven by this 4.5 volt battery.

But then the funny thing is, sometimes when I plug on and off the decoupling capacitors from the breadboard, the whole thing will work again.

I have tested this with a number of my spare chips, they all behave the same way, so unless they are ALL damaged I have to believe this bogs down to two main things.

First the LEDs connected directly to the battery drains its power too quickly and the Chip failed to receive the required power soon.

Second…since removing and replacing the decouple 0.1uf capacitor works [sometimes], it must be the mysterious “noise” that people talk about when they talk about experimenting with Breadboards.

This is a really exciting time for me to ask.

So…what really is this “Breadboard Noise” thingy ?

This event got me really interested in it

 

[Reloadron]

PICs can be pretty fussy animals there Bracer, and you know from that last thread about LEDs and series resistors. You haven't provided much if any real information here. I will tell you that the decoupling capacitor is real important and should be as close to the VCC oin of the uC as possible. I would also suggest if you are going to get into PICs that the forums have a very, very good micro-controller section.

The breadboard "noise thingy" is just that. It is noise and decoupling cap(s) help to eliminate the noise. Though working off a battery the noise should be minimal. Check your wiring!

Ron

 

[Bracer]

Sir Yes Sir!

The decoupling capacitor is real important and should be as close to the VCC oin of the uC as possible

Vcc is the pin connected to the + right ?
What is uC ? and what is oin ?

I am sorry about the lack of details, I need time to upload the video:
Here you go Reloadron:

 

[Mickster]

EDIT: I am wrong about this and I apologise unreservedly.

I think we are being "had" with the questions from Bracer...

The text in this member's posts suggests someone more than briefly familiar with written English, along with an extensive understanding of theory and formulae.

I may be wrong, but there seems to be an obvious attempt to obscure this by inserting 'mistakes' which a non English speaking member would not use.

With reference to the original post above, spelling, punctuation and grammar are pretty much perfect apart from the 'mistakes'.

Have a look a this thread, linked below, to see what originally piqued my interest...
https://www.electro-tech-online.com...2-green-led-in-series-connected-to-6v.117291/

If I am wrong, I will publicly apologise, but I am not about to hold my breath....

 

[carbonzit]

Vcc is the pin connected to the + right ?
What is uC ? and what is oin ?

Yes. And uC is "microcontroller", and "oin" is a typo for "pin".

Regarding "breadboard noise": it's not as if breadoards actually generate noise. There's no component in there that does that.

However, the way many circuits are assembled on breadboards is less than ideal: connections are far from as good as soldered ones, parts can shift around, and there's generally waaay too much wiring, with wires too close together causing capacitive coupling. So noise tends to happen. Ron's suggestion about bypass capacitors (0.1 uF or so) as close as possible to V+ pins is a good one. Every chip should have one.

I think we are being "had" with the questions from Bracer...

Possible, but I doubt it. Judging from his (I ASS-U-me that's the gender, but who knows?) little pic and the fact that he seems to be making a Star Trek tricorder, I get the impression he's kind of a fanzine-type kid. Maybe a bit, I don't know, Anime-ized or something, like an annoying Pokemon fan, but an earnest kid nonetheless who really does want to learn the art of electronics. So that's going to be my assumption until someone proves otherwise. (Sorry to be talking behind your back like that, Bracer!)

 

[Bracer]

Aw Mickster you are so funny!
Thank you
Thank you
English is not my first language and you DO NOT want to hear how I sound, you would probably prefer to be struggled by a Giant Chicken if one exists.

As a matter of fact, I am so insecure about my English that I type everything in Word first to check for mistakes so obvious that even a software could pick up, as for the other mistakes that it can't, I cross my fingers and hope someone like you didn't realize I am horrible in the language.

 

[Mickster]

With Reference to the previous link:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com...2-green-led-in-series-connected-to-6v.117291/
Is the member account for 'Bracer' an ego-stroker for 'carbonzit' ?

 

[Mickster]

Aw Mickster you are so funny!
Thank you
Thank you
English is not my first language and you DO NOT want to hear how I sound, you would probably prefer to be struggled by a Giant Chicken if one exists.

As a matter of fact, I am so insecure about my English that I type everything in Word first to check for mistakes so obvious that even a software could pick up, as for the other mistakes that it can't, I cross my fingers and hope someone like you didn't realize I am horrible in the language.

What language is your native tongue?

 

[carbonzit]

With Reference to the previous link:
https://www.electro-tech-online.com...2-green-led-in-series-connected-to-6v.117291/
Is the member account for 'Bracer' an ego-stroker for 'carbonzit' ?

As the one whose ego was stroked in that thread, then I'll have to say "guilty as charged". Except that I have no connection to this person, have no idea who he (or she) is or where they come from. And I didn't go fishing for ego-strokes; I was just exercising my teaching chops.

Not a sock puppet, if that's what you're getting at.

 

[Bracer]

Mickster...are you trying to stir up bad blood ?
carbonzit has helped me in a way that I personally feel is way out of basic requirements, I have no idea what culture you are from where appreciating people for what they have done for you is such a negative thing.

If you actually read the thread that you posted, you would have realize how much him and other members have helped me.

I will have you know that if your next reply is yet another attempt to cause doubt, or any further negatives about the helping atmosphere here, I will just ignore your post.
I don't want to have to do this, I will try to respond to you but don't behave in a way that makes me feel wrong for appreciating people.


So carbonzit, according to Reloadron, I have to put the decoupling 0.1uf as close to the positive pin of the microcontroller as possible....what...what about the negative pin ?
Does the other end of the capacitor need to be close to the negative pin as well or we can just stick it far away as long as it is connected to ground.

With wires too close together causing capacitive coupling. So noise tends to happen.

This is NEW to me!
Wow! What the hell is this phenomenon, I am totally smiling right now at this new thing !
Is it one of those "coil the wires around the nail" experiment thingy we had in school ?

I get the impression he's kind of a fanzine-type kid

Picture a guy with thick Specs and no friends because he is such a nerd and keep asking questions
I suppose that is why I am excited when people wants to help me
It's rare in real life where people just look pass me.

 

[carbonzit]

So carbonzit, according to Reloadron, I have to put the decoupling 0.1uf as close to the positive pin of the microcontroller as possible....what...what about the negative pin ?
Those the other end of the capacitor need to be close to the negative pin as well or we can just stick it far away as along as it is connected to ground.

Both sides of the cap should be as close as possible to where they go (V+ on one side, ground on the other).

With wires too close together causing capacitive coupling. So noise tends to happen.

This is NEW to me!
Wow! What the hell is this phenomenon, I am totally smiling right now at this new thing !
Is it one of those "coil the wires around the nail" experiment thingy we had in school ?

Kinda sorta. As you know (you do know this, don't you?) a capacitor consists of two conductors separated by a dielectric (an insulator). Well, if you have two wires very close to each other--two conductors with a small amount of insulation between them--then what do you have?

 

[Bracer]

Wow...so the wire insulators are dielectric....cool!

 

[Mickster]

I will have you know that if your next reply is yet another attempt to cause doubt, or any further negatives about the helping atmosphere here, I will just ignore your post.
I don't want to have to do this, I will try to respond to you but don't behave in a way that makes me feel wrong for appreciating people.

This is my next non-negative reply and I will ask the previous question again:

"What language is your native tongue?"

The reason I am asking this, is to help to determine how the members of this forum can tailor answers, in order for you to get the most fulfilling experience here.
Generally, when a member creates a profile, they fill out their location. This can serve to indicate possible languages used in certain geographical locations and aid where translation software may be required, in order for terminology to fully understood.
You don't appear to have any problems with grammar, punctuation, theory, terminology, ad-infinitum, but even so, should there come a question as to the suitability or availability of a particular device, a geographical location in your profile would likely help in procurement of the said device....

 

[audioguru]

Almost every time a kid posts a problem wth a circuit it was because it was built on a breadboard with its millions of intermittent contacts, high inductance of its many jumper wires all over the place (and their confusion) and very high stray capacitance between the rows of contacts and the mess of wiring.

A breadboard can be used for a DC circuit if you can see what connects to what.

 

[Bracer]

That is very Thorough of you Mickster

My native language is mandarin, or as Family guy would say it, orange.

From Wiki:
Due to large stray capacitance (from 2-25 pF per contact point), high inductance of some connections and a relatively high and not very reproducible contact resistance, solderless breadboards are limited to operate at relatively low frequencies, usually less than 10 MHz, depending on the nature of the circuit. The relative high contact resistance can already be a problem for DC and very low frequency circuits. Solderless breadboards are further limited by their voltage and current ratings.

This is soooooooooooooooo INTERESTING, I have no idea what it is saying but it's like so cool!

What is "2-25 pF per contact point" ?

"high inductance of some connections" What ? some connection ? What is high inductance in the first place ? heh

"solderless breadboards are limited to operate at relatively low frequencies, usually less than 10 MHz"
THIS one completely blew my mind, WHAT THE HELL is Wiki talking about here ?
wow, I know NOTHING!
This is so sad! Ha Ha Ha

 

[Mickster]

My native language is mandarin, or as Family guy would say it, orange.

What's the Mandarin translation for "trip-trapping"?

 

[audioguru]

At a high frequency, the inductance of a fairly long wire (it might be only a few cm long) causes it to have a high reactance (look at reactance in Google). The wires on a breadboard are inductors.
The rows of contacts and mess of wires on a breadboard have probably 50pf of capacitance between them that messes up many circuits.

Use a compact pcb or compact stripboard wiring instead.

Use a lousy old breadboard for intermittent DC circuits.

 

[killivolt]

At a high frequency, the inductance of a fairly long wire (it might be only a few cm long) causes it to have a high reactance (look at reactance in Google). The wires on a breadboard are inductors.
The rows of contacts and mess of wires on a breadboard have probably 50pf of capacitance between them that messes up many circuits.

Use a compact pcb or compact stripboard wiring instead.

Use a lousy old breadboard for intermittent DC circuits.

Bracer, you want to pay very close attention to what he is saying. If you want success, go the extra; if you can, prove the circuit. Putting away any stray capacitance.

In the future with newer style circuit boards, this becomes a significant problem.

Small traces will also have some capacitance and will generate their own stray values to plague a project.

 

[audioguru]

In my entire 45 years electronics career I used a breadboard only one time. The circuit DID NOT WORK. Ater troubleshooting it for many hours I found a few intermittent contacts and the high stray capacitance messed it up. I tried a compact stripboard layout and it worked perfectly.
All my compact stripboard circuits worked perfectly.
Use a confusing breadboard for DC circuits and tell your teachers to **** themselves..

 

[killivolt]

In my entire 45 years electronics career I used a breadboard only one time. The circuit DID NOT WORK. Ater troubleshooting it for many hours I found a few intermittent contacts and the high stray capacitance messed it up. I tried a compact stripboard layout and it worked perfectly.
All my compact stripboard circuits worked perfectly.
Use a confusing breadboard for DC circuits and tell your teachers to **** themselves..

Deleted: hahahahahahahahahahaha