PCBs

[evandude]

I didn't like Eagle at all... finally found PCB123 which is much more user friendly, IMHO. It is a free download.

I can easily see how one might get that impression. Maybe it's just cultural software convention differences between here and germany, but eagle definitely feels "weird" in many ways. (ie: 'undo' is alt+backspace instead of ctrl+z, and what they call 'cut' is actually what we call 'copy', among other things) and it's got plenty of annoying issues. And you HAVE to get used to making your own parts.

However, once you get used to it it's not too bad. The reasons that I still use eagle are that A) it makes nice-looking schematics, making it useful even just for making quick schematics to put on a website, whereas some of the other packages I've tried made pretty ugly ones, and B) I find laying out PCB's to be quite quick and easy, even when adding things like pours. Also, features like autorouting and DRC are nice. The board size limitation does suck, and I am still upset with the company for not offering any better options for software licenses that would be suitable for hobbyists, but as long as I'm doing small boards it's still my first choice.

Another reason I haven't gotten into using packages like PCB123 is their direct tie to the company's commercial PCB manufacturing business. I don't know the specifics of that one in particular, but I know that some similar packages have given people problems such as not being able to print a layout (to make DIY boards), or inability to export data that could be used at another (cheaper) PCB fab house. Not that eagle's perfect there either, but you can export board artwork easily, and there is at least one low-cost board house that accepts eagle format files.

 

[philba]

I didn't like Eagle at all... finally found PCB123 which is much more user friendly, IMHO. It is a free download.

I found pcb123 to be very weak and, worse, it locks you into the PCB manufacturer. Most of the "friendly, easy" PCB packages are just too lightweight. The libraries are meager and they really aren't all that friendly.

Eagle has a lot of power and is worth getting past the non-windows nature of the interface. I used to hate it but after using it for a while now, I've come to appreciate the interface. In fact, the interface has much more consistency than I gave it credit for. You just have to check your windows biases at the door...

And, I recommend people avoid getting locked into a single manufacturer.

edit: dang evan, beat me by 3 minutes.

 

[Rolf]

{snip}I found pcb123 to be very weak and, worse, it locks you into the PCB manufacturer. Most of the "friendly, easy" PCB packages are just too lightweight. The libraries are meager and they really aren't all that friendly. {snip{QUOTE]

I should probably have stated, in my previous post, that I only use PBC123 as a CAD program for laying out PCB manually. And It was from that standpoint I recommended its use. Most generally used components are in one of the many libraries, if not, the pads can easily be drawn manually for two and three lead items.
But I guess it boils down to; just use what you like.

 

[n.house]

You could try EasyPC (they do a free 30 day download) then transfer to a Gerber file. There are many companys that will manufacture a PCB from a Gerber. Last week I managed to get 10 high density PCBs proto types for £87.
All you do is email the file !

 

[nye]

how abt express PCB???they hav all the pars in their library, and u can print the layout or export it in the form of a Bitmap.... is there a big difference in surface mounting components??u jus solder them so tht no holes are required right??is it very complicated??

 

[manish12]

Any way send the schematic to me i will send the pcb layout to you.
i have a exp. about 10 yeras in design as well as pcb making.
i will send the layout as well as all related file for further modification without any cost.
if possible go with orcad.
ok.

 

[evandude]

how abt express PCB???they hav all the pars in their library, and u can print the layout or export it in the form of a Bitmap.... is there a big difference in surface mounting components??u jus solder them so tht no holes are required right??is it very complicated??

but expressPCB is yet another one where the software is primariliy tied to the manufacturing service that they offer, which is the only reason they make the software free. As long as you can print and export bitmaps it's not terrible, but still... I used it for some time at a summer job last year, and wasn't really a big fan of it.

 

[philba]

just say no to captive software. don't get locked into a manufacturer.

print and bitmap export just aren't the same as gerber. even if you are making the board yourself.

Oddly enough, express PCB doesn't take gerbers. though they probably use them internally. I'm sure hand-holding the customer is too expensive. However, many houses take eagle files directly.

and I hear you on expresspcb, evan. It seemed really clumsy just to do simple things. I'm, sure, however, that if I had invested the time I could make it do what i wanted.

 

[nye]

thanks manish..will b contacting u very soon..OrCAD isn't free is it??si this gerber also a PCB design program??Eagle seemed a lil bit complicated..or is it actually easy??so is it better to go for OrCAD,Eagle or Gerber??

 

[philba]

gerber is the output format that most PCB houses uses. all decent PCB programs understand gerber. The name comes from a company that made early photo plotters for PCB work.

 

[nye]

ah ok..so its better to go wit Eagle since it understands tht format?

 

[Hero999]

sorry but let me jus run thro the toner transfer process...i prepare the layout with either Eagle or Express PCB...then i print it using a laser printer on the toner side of the toner paper...then i place the toner paper with the printed/toner side on the board, and then iron over it with an iron..then i remove the paper,

Clean the board thoroughly before you do anything to it. I use a special metal work polishing block but an old rag and metal polish should work.

You need a special kind of paper, you can either waste loads of money buying the realy expensive Press 'n Peel stuff or use magazine paper. After you've ironed the paper to the board, you need to soak it in cold water to remove it, this takes 5 to 20 miniutes.

and will c the toner stuck to the board...then i etch it( probably with Ferric Chloride) and then after that, how do i wash of the toner??and then when i wash of the toner is it ready for use?? or do i have to tin the tracks, or varnish the board or anything like tht??

I prefer the non-staining etching solution but I can't remmber the name at the moment.

PCB cleaner is good at removing the toner or just use nail varnish remover, it's best to do this immediatly before soldering.

 

[evandude]

Clean the board thoroughly before you do anything to it. I use a special metal work polishing block but an old rag and metal polish should work.

You need a special kind of paper, you can either waste loads of money buying the realy expensive Press 'n Peel stuff or use magazine paper. After you've ironed the paper to the board, you need to soak it in cold water to remove it, this takes 5 to 20 miniutes.

I personally use scotch-brite pads, and then wipe the dust off with a paper towel and rubbing alcohol afterward.

As far as press-n-peel goes, well, it's $1.50 a sheet, you just need to buy it quite a few sheets at a time. Even if you're buying your PCB surplus, it's still cheaper per square inch than the PCB you use it with, and depending on what etching solution you use, probably cheaper than the amount of etchant it takes to etch that much PCB as well. If you use it intelligently (cut out the right size piece and tape it to a piece of regular paper to run through the printer) then you can use each transfer sheet without much waste. When making small boards, you can often get half a dozen or a dozen boards out of a single sheet, reducing the per-board added cost to 10 or 20 cents, not even a very significant fraction of the total cost of materials, so I'm not sure how accurate it is to say that it is "wasting loads of money".

I also find it does a better job than all the paper methods that I have tried, partly because it peels easily so it doesn't usually result in many (if any) lifted traces or pads, and the blue plastic-like transfer material remains bonded to the toner, acting as an extra layer of etch resist, so the copper underneath is COMPLETELY un-etched, even if your laser printer isn't laying down an extremely thick layer of toner. And, there's no soaking or scrubbing to remove the backing sheet; just cool the board and peel it off; no added effort, no added 5-20 minutes of soaking.

Clearly it all comes down to personal preference, personally I am more than willing to spring for the extra 10-20 cents a board because it makes my life easier and I get faster, better, and more consistent results.

I prefer the non-staining etching solution but I can't remmber the name at the moment.

ammonium persulfate is one that I have used, it's water clear when fresh and turns translucent blue (looks like windex) as it is used. I'm not a huge fan of it because it feels like I get very little use out of it before it is 'spent' and I need to mix up a fresh batch, and it is much more sensitive to temperature than, for example, ferric chloride... at room temperature the etching time is ridiculously long (once it took like an hour), and even mixing it with boiling water and setting the tray in a larger tray full of boiling water to keep it hotter for longer, it still takes longer than I would like. But, it is nice to be able to clearly see the etching progress, and not have to worry about staining.

 

[philba]

Lots of points. here.

I use wet-or-dry sandpaper, 650 grit to prep the board. then clean it with acetone. the sandpaper creates more surface area and gives better toner adhesion.

Press-n-peel works but so does inkjet paper (fed through a laser jet). It takes a little more cleaning but it costs around 4 cents a sheet.

I use AP as well but I have an aquarium heater and a bubbler. when the solution is at 130F, etching takes about 5 minutes for 1/2 oz boards and 10 minutes for 1 oz boards. which is about the same speed as FeCl. Heating also gets you a lot more etches as the solubility of CuCl (the product of the etching) is much higher at 130F than 60-80F. You have to hack the aquarium heater since it has a thermal cut off at 100F. I just twisted the thing so the leads were shorted. 50 watts heats a liter of etchant in about 30 minutes. the bubbler causes the etchant to circulate and make the etching rate more uniform. When the etchant cools, the CuCl drops out of solution and you can decant it to prolong the etchant's life. The crystals are kind of cool looking.

I absolutely hate FeCl. It's just plain nasty stuff. stains like crazy and you can't see the progress of the etching.

 

[evandude]

I've never heated it the way you do, but knowing that it improves things that much, I probably will try that.

When the etchant cools, the CuCl drops out of solution and you can decant it to prolong the etchant's life. The crystals are kind of cool looking.

I'm no chemist, but I'm not so sure about the whole CuCl thing, seeing as ammonium persulphate is (NH4)2S2O8, so I don't see where the chlorine would be coming from... but regardless of what exactly is precipitating, it's interesting that you can do that, and I'd be interested in knowing more about the chemistry of it all (is the solution becoming 'spent' mainly because of too much dissolved copper, or is the AP being significantly consumed as well?)

I sure wish I had a nice ventilated garage to work in, instead of a college dorm room, so I could keep permanent tank of cupric chloride etchant, which can be refreshed indefinitely with a little HCl and an air bubbler... but filling my room with HCl fumes would probably not be wise

 

[philba]

argh. you are right, it's copper sulphate - CuSo4. dunno what I was thinking.

I believe there is AP left in the solution - heating really makes a difference when the solution is getting older. I don't know the reaction 100% but I think its (NH4)2S2O8 + 2Cu -> 2NH4 (in solution) + 2CuS04 CuS04 has a lower solubility than AP.

I've played with CuCl etchant (H2O2 + hydrochloric acid) and had nothing but trouble with it. it is a very attractive etchant in, as you say, it can theoretically last for ever. but never got a decent etch with out adding 30% H2O2 which turned out to be not cheap at all in my neck of the woods. I tried bubbling for weeks and didn't get any regeneration. also, even with heating, it was fairly slow. HCl attacks a lot of plastic so I was having problems with my bubbler getting eaten. Also, the stuff auto-syphoned itself out the bubbler hose and destroyed my air pump. what a mess. worse, the HCl slowly attacks the plastic in toner so long etches were a complete mess.

 

[evandude]

I've played with CuCl etchant (h2o2 + hydrochloric acid) and had nothing but trouble with it. it is a very attractive etchant in, as you say, it can theoretically last for ever. but never got a decent etch with out adding 30% h2o2 which turned out to be not cheap at all in my neck of the woods.

Well, H2O2 and HCl aren't CuCl etchant in and of themselves... the impression that I got from this page:
**broken link removed**
is that it takes quite a few days of careful preparation using those chemicals plus copper metal to actually make the Cupric Chloride, and the h2o2 is optional just to get the process started, so if you needed to be adding a ton of h2o2 something doesnt sound right...

 

[philba]

Yeah, i went through all that. copper loading and such. got the specific grav up there. I'm sure I wasn't doing it right but I just didn't want to play chemist when AP works great for me.

 

[evandude]

I'll definitely give the AP a shot with a heater, honestly right now I feel it is doing a VERY poor job, but knowing someone else is having great luck with it with a different method gives me a lot of hope. Might I ask what you are using for an etching tank? I haven't had great luck finding anything I can use as a good vertical tank, that i can seal up when i'm done...

 

[manish12]

any way send the your circuit to me i will send the layout file back within two days.
tm1234@rediffmail.com