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New type of efficient HHO cell

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy' started by large_ghostman, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    First the disclaimer.....

    yes this is a HHO cell made to produce gas, no it isnt a over unity device. Its function is to produce nice clean gases that are separated and used for something else. It has nothing to do with engines etc! The other disclaimer as you will see is this is from a decent Journal and the article is actually about the catalyst used.

    I have use for both on demand Hydrogen and Oxygen, easy enough to do electrically but you always run into the same problems sooner or later. I could get cylinders but there is a rental charge and they are getting expensive to have delivered, also sometimes like this time I need constant but small amounts.

    Normally i go the smidge of Sulphuric acid in DI water router, electrode in glass tubes similar to a hoffman set up used to prove that water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen. The cheaper you can make the gas the better, the less faffing with drying the gasses etc the better. The OU boys swear by Tungsten as an electrode but its rubbish! Now its proven rubbish by this journal.

    The obvious choices for electrodes that last and dont contaminate would be platinum, can you spot the problem with using that? :D. But turns out apparently not. Reading Febs Journal of chemical education I came across a demo in the journal for splitting water using cheap to get top class electrodes of decent size!
    Your welcome to read the abstract which has alot of info, i wont post the entire pdf because of copywrite and loosing my access to the uni library!

    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.jchemed.7b00537

    But if you want a full copy for personal use get in touch.

    The article goes into the problems of over potential etc etc and gives various figures for Tungsten and other electrodes. The main difference is this cell is an alkali cell using Sodium Hydroxide, so that cuts out alot of metal electrodes for a start.

    Using Hydroxide is actually pretty clever, it oxidizes really well but is rough on most metals. those metals its not rough on tend not to be efficient. For Oxidizing the OH- ions at the anode they used plates made from an alloy containing roughly 1.69%cobalt, 40.44% chromium, and 7.87% platinum. At 1M concentration of Sodium Hydroxide you would see zero wear at the anode, i got to be honest and say with nearly 8% platinum and cobalt, these plates might also be able to handle chlorate production.

    Anyway for producing Hydrogen, water is reduced At the cathode using a Nickel−phosphorus plate, the two cells are bridged.

    Now for the best bit of all, where do you get these catalytic super electrodes? Turns out the top plate of a HDD is made with a coating of CoPtCr and the under side is made with a coating of Nickel−Phosphorus :D. here is a screen shot from the journal article.

    cell.png

    cell2.png
    I suspect this applies mainly to older plates considering the amount of platinum in them, but having never really thought about what the plates were made from, might be worth using them for other things. Anyway if anyone does want the complete article pm me.

    P.S
    So far i have used 3M hydroxide and absolutely no pitting! You get alot more gas by using Hydroxide to most other methods.
     
  2. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I tried this slightly differently, some of my old HDD had more than 2 plates inside, So i stuck two of each together. Each Anode had the PT side facing out and vice versa with the Cathode, I used silicon high temp grease around the edge and as a thing smear around the inside about 1cm wide, then drilled through in a couple of places and secured with nylon nut's and bolts.

    These works exceptionally well for gas production and use less electric. Nice big surface area so if you need more gas you can up the current or the voltage can be upped a little, but I am trying to keep that below 3.2V. I might try with laptop HDD plates as well for smaller versions. Just in case some idiots find this........ Yes it works much better than most complicated HHO cells, no it wont do jack for petrol consumption and no it dosnt break any laws of physics.

    Just because I found a better way for me to produce two gases i use, dosnt mean this cell is now capable of giving out more than it gets in!! But it is cleaner, it does last longer and it allows you to use Hydroxide instead of just water! This allows you to produce alot more gas for the same current, so would salt but then you also have the basics of a chlorate cell and you dont wanna do that. especially if your in the Uk then you REALLY dont want to do that.

    BTW its mainly the Hydrogen I use as a flushing gas instead of Nitrogen and for some things Hydrogen is a better gas to use, Does make me wonder though if you could make a tiny jewelers Hydrogen and Oxygen torch for melting or shaping glass tubes...

    Will stick with the Mapp gas for now though, a tad safer than mixing hydrogen and Oxygen :D
     
  3. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Very interesting article.
    How can you tell which side is which?
    Do all drive platters have this plating?
    Are you combining 4 platters to make the two electrodes with different sides facing outward?

    Keep us posted on progress.

    Mike.
     
  4. dave miyares

    Dave New Member

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  5. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Will send you the full pdf mike,
    The platters i assume are from older drives, seeing as many newer ones are ceramic with a coating. The PDF makes it sound like the top plate is different from the bottom plate on a two plate drive, the HDD's i took apart seemed to be the same, the only difference being the top side was slightly more shiny than the under side, so i think what they actually mean is, the top side of the plates are the platinum containing side.

    What i have done is combine 4 platters to make 2 electrodes but I have the same side's facing out on the anode and the cathode i have the opposite two sides facing out. otherwise I figured it would destroy the electrode, especially as I wanted to push the concentration of hydroxide.

    I doubt it will make a difference but i will also try potassium hydroxide, the pdf mentions supporting material. The journal always does this, it leaves alot of the prep stuff in separate pdf's you can only get from the site. I didnt download them as I didnt need them, if you want them give me a day or so and i will go back in and download the other material.

    My hunch is newer HDDS wont have the same composition, that seems alot of PT for the cost of a modern drive, thats why i dug out much older drives with real Neo magnets in and not the skinny things they use now.

    I normally make chlorates with MMO electrodes but because its hard to get in the UK and really expensive (should be much cheaper in OZ from pool shops), i am going to try these electrodes as the platinum content might just be enough to protect them, also i add Dichromate to my solution to prevent the formation of hypochlorite with back passivization. I usea tiny amount just enough to impart a slight discoloration to the solution.
     
  6. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Sent you a message with a link as its too big to post!! I have explained in the message how to get the file, sorry its a bit of a pain but its on the secure server.
     
  7. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I was about to throw four 1G drives away that I found in school. They date from 1997. Will rescue them this afternoon.

    Mike.
     
  8. dave miyares

    Dave New Member

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  9. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Mike those drives have the best of all magnets in, they have the most pure Neodymium in them. The later drives that were bigger used a different magnet if you dissolve them in Nitric you find they are heavily contaminated with alot of other metals. They are also alot thicker.
    Imagine the fidget spinner you could make with those!! Might solve 3/4 of Aus electric needs if you get the right microwave oven coil.......and angle the ball bearing [sorry i mean electron focus device] just right :D.

    I am pretty sure thay would be around the same age as the ones i used and likely to have good thick layer on. on the plates.
     
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  10. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Might be a problem using it for a chlorate cell, most the common acids might react with the Nickel, Normally you use HCl and a hexavalent Chromium salt to keep the cell from passivating and producing hypochlorite.

    I think in such highly oxidizing conditions the Electrodes would suffer quickly, but maybe if a different acid was used..... Its only put in a Chlorate cell to keep the PH from rising too much, so we need an acid that is OK being mixed with Chlorates and dosnt affect Nickel...... I am working on it but drawn a blank so far, so the books are out :D
     
  11. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Interesting thread. :cool:

    It depends on how you do it but in most circumstances you can run hydrogen though Oxy/Acetylene or Oxy/Propane torch system without issue. I've done it for years and never once had a problem with running it that way. ;)
     
  12. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    These are much smaller volumes and not in a cylinder. besides mapp is overkill for boro glass as it is :D
     
  13. large_ghostman

    large_ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Mike did you get the files? I dont get to see if the file was downloaded.

    These older HDD's are worth keeping if you have them, turns out while they are not so great for some things they do have some uses.
     

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