How to recycle Ferric chloride

[large_ghostman]

Over the years I have seen lots of threads on how to get rid of or how to try and recover spent ferric chloride. I found a video on how to do and have no waste product! I admit unless your into chemistry some of the equipment would need some bodging, but I thought it might be useful. I will use this method in the future.
The hydrochloric acid mentioned in the video is already in the solution and isnt something you add, just in case people think you need to add acid

 

[jpanhalt]

Completely unnecessary and convoluted.

Copper (II) chloride (aka, cupric chloride) is by itself a very good etchant. Some people start with that and simply add a little HCl to ensure the solution has a stoichiometric excess of acid. Then etch as usual. When done, bubble air, oxygen, or ozone through the solution to regenerate the cupric chloride. You have to occasionally add a little HCl to make up for the production of cupric chloride. When I have used cupric chloride to etch, I just let the flask stand for a few days, and it regenerates without bubbling. There are plenty of descriptions of that process on the Internet. You don't need fancy equipment to tell how much HCl to add. You can just go by color,

If you start with ferric chloride, all you need to do is add a little HCl as described above, and let the solution re-oxidize. It will last forever, but eventually be converted to mostly cupric chloride.

John

 

[large_ghostman]

I mentioned Copper (II) Chloride in the other thread on recycling copper from old circuit boards John. This method I posted is really for UK people who use ferric chloride and dont know the best way to get rid of it, not everyone in the UK has access to Hydrochloric acid easily. This IMHO is simply because HCL is found easily over there in pool shops etc, over here there isnt a great demand for swimming pools so not many shops.
I agree with everything your saying, however as this way dosnt require the need to buy acid I thought for those with some imagination (for making a simple distillation set up) it might help them in the disposal or reuse of the ferric Chloride.

I think in the other thread I went into detail about buffering with sodium acetate and acetic acid (2Mol), but I cant remember now. Copper(II) Chloride and some Hydrogen peroxide to get it a bit of a start is excellent for etching, however your a Chemist where as many here simply buy ferric Chloride from a shop then wonder how to best dispose of the spent chemical.

So for those who arrive in the future via google, you now have enough information on this page to make a choice . And as long as people STOP putting the stuff down the sink I will be happy .

I have to admit I while convoluted it is a little elegant in the way you end up with no waste! One other note for UK people Hydrochloric acid pops up now and then in places like DIY Centers as Muriatic acid (rarely) or more commonly look for strong brick or patio cleaner, read the label and it should say Hydrochloric acid or maybe HCL on it. If you happen to live near one of the very few pool shops in the UK then you have cheap access to a whole host of fantastic Chemicals and I am jealous! LOL

Lastly I cant remember the ebay name at the moment but a ebay UK seller, sells ferric chloride that has been used a few times and has undergone this process. Do yourself a favor and pay an £1 for the fresh stuff , I have had some of his and it isnt very good

 

[kubeek]

not everyone in the UK has access to Hydrochloric acid easily

Is there some special regulation, or why is that? I can get here HCL in just about any larger drugstore, usually right next to sodium hydroxide and battery acid.

 

[large_ghostman]

No not especially, the problem is your drug stores are a cross between our pharmacies and supermarkets. pharmacies used to have loads of chemicals apparently, but now just packets of drugs. Supermarkets sell food, so anything else is found at DIY super stores and the range is highly limited, not everyone of them will sell patio or brick cleaner.
Those that do tend to water it right down!

I think our major problem is the weather for one, we dont have many swimming pools in the UK so not many pool shops where the real goodies are. Also we are a part of europe, because of this if it's something you can trip over or cause you to get a hair out of place they make it hard to get. Dont get me wrong I can get HCL in 20ltr containers, but I know where to look and it isnt in the shops .

Battery acid you can forget, I have never seen it anywhere but then again I have not been everywhere. Few here realize that B&Q sell 98% sulphuric acid as a drain opener! it has a red dye in it, but alot of people here would buy a small bottle of weak soda powder and try and use that, then they call a plumber to come unblock the pipe.
Some common chemicals are now illegal to own without a license (Nitric acid over 12%) and they wont give you a license without a very very good reason, this is one reason my mum now owns a LTD company . I can order via that, Hydrogen peroxide over 6% is a no no but if you know where you can get it. The real problems come if your caught with this stuff without good reason and a license. Next year it gets worse as possession of certain chemicals becomes illegal, at the moment its just the purchase!

So I think its part culture and part lack of demand by the common public. Makes home chemistry a nightmare! One reason I will do anything to help mum keep our house, where we live I can do things that most cant do even though what I do isnt of ill intent or bad in anyway. I like to experiment and explore science, the government only has two box's on the form for people like me. Terrorist or Drug cook!! Wouldnt occur to a single politician here that people would actually like to explore science outside of an institution. I love the stories of how my dad grew up, kids my age were expected to make things go bang and burn the shed down. It would never have crossed anyone's mind that he was making drugs or bombs, as he once said to me, Science is not a spectator sport you learn by making discoveries or mistakes and sometimes its hard to tell which came first lol

 

[jpanhalt]

Battery acid you can forget, I have never seen it anywhere but then again I have not been everywhere.

Well, then, how are you going to do the recovery process described in the video you posted?

BTW, I checked ebay.co.uk and HCl is readily available there from UK suppliers.

John

 

[large_ghostman]

Hi John, yes ebay is the best place for ease but costs more. I have sulphuric acid but if pushed I would use the long route of copper sulphate and some electrodes.
I will watch the video again?? I dont remember any mention of sulphuric acid?? But that isnt a big surprise at the moment.

Most here I think would use boiled used battery acid or the red drain cleaner I mentioned, its good stuff for the price and 98%. I doubt it will be sold next year though. Funny thing is most batteries here I think are sealed, so maybe that explains the battery acid.
Sulphuric acid you can get on ebay but you pay a price, the drain cleaner while a little contaminated is 98% and good enough for most. I have access to lab grade but need to start using drain cleaner when I can and save the good stuff.

EDIT

DOH....... I was still thinking of the other thread and the copper (II)! Sorry I apologize I went completely off grid for a minuet

In case I have confused UK people.

In the UK shops like B&Q sell both sulphuric acid (98%) and weaker hydrochloric acid, the hydrochloric is called patio or brick wash.

Ebay is a good source but costs alot more, watch the fumes with both and have GOOD eye protection! and wear gloves. For a laugh put a single drop of 98% sulphuric acid on a paper towel, this tells you why you want good gloves .

Yes many are used to strong acids etc but some will be kids with parents not savvy, so if using any of the methods be careful

 

[jpanhalt]

Most here I think would use boiled used battery acid ...

I must be a bit fuzzy on battery chemistry. What does boiling "battery" acid from a dead battery accomplish? That is, what is the purpose of "boiling."

John

 

[kubeek]

No not especially, the problem is your drug stores are a cross between our pharmacies and supermarkets.

I am not sure if we meet with the meaning of the term, what I mean by a drugstore has nothing to do with a pharmacy, and just a little bit of DIY large store where you can get anything from mortar to carpets. I meant a place where we typically can buy say laundry detergent, weed killer, all different kinds of paint and paint thinners, drain cleaner and stuff like that.

 

[chemelec]

QUOTE: Few here realize that B&Q sell 98% sulphuric acid as a drain opener!

Why would anyone use or Sell Sulphuric Acid for a Drain Cleaner?
It will eat out the older Steel Pipes and does almost nothing to remove Organic Matter.

Sodium Hydroxide is MUCH BETTER as a Drain cleaner.

 

[Pommie]

Here in Aus we can get lots of chemicals as pool supplies. I also have a hair salon so strong peroxide isn't a problem either.
I normally use Ammonium Persulphate as an etchant as it's a really clean process and easily available.
A good source of Sulphuric Acid is PH minus from pool supplies, as it's a powder they will post it. It can be used as H2SO4 in most aqueous chemistry or can be dry distilled to leave Sodium Sulphate and the condensate is conc H2SO4. Google turned up https://www.amazon.co.uk/Minus-Swimming-Pool-Acid-Reducer/dp/B00AWP7C8G

Mike.

 

[Willen]

Hi,
I had prepared a ferric chloride solution mixing it with water. Till now I have etched many (not more) copper boards. I have stored the bottle and at the bottom of the bottle I can see approx. 1cm thicker layer of paste, I know it's etched copper. Can I keep just clean solution of upper part and remove the paste from bottle, and won't I loss ferric chloride much more? I think ferric chloride never goes to the bottom from water like sand.

 

[large_ghostman]

I must be a bit fuzzy on battery chemistry. What does boiling "battery" acid from a dead battery accomplish? That is, what is the purpose of "boiling."

John

LOL yeah yeah I know, I think often the old batteries just about have some acid left among st the sulphates and other crud! On one forum I frequent it is often the only source people have, very weak and needs much boiling to just get an acid witches brew.

The drain stuff is like this (other brands available) **broken link removed**

Its used to eat the organics and I think most pipes here are plastic (dont quote that).
As for the drug store thing, B&Q are about as close as we get (at least anywhere near where I have lived). They just are not as well stocked as ones in the states, I have been to both LA and Las Vegas (cousins, Elvis wedding ). I went to a drug store in LA and trust me if we had anything like that here I would move next door!

 

[large_ghostman]

Hi,
I had prepared a ferric chloride solution mixing it with water. Till now I have etched many (not more) copper boards. I have stored the bottle and at the bottom of the bottle I can see approx. 1cm thicker layer of paste, I know it's etched copper. Can I keep just clean solution of upper part and remove the paste from bottle, and won't I loss ferric chloride much more? I think ferric chloride never goes to the bottom from water like sand.

I dont fully understand the question, however if the sludge contains copper mix the sludge in a beaker with some water and add some vitamin C tablets! I know it sounds daft but copper will precipitate out if its in there. If the solution is spent then you need to work it up a bit as in the video or use another method.
Mikes suggestion also works really well, but again not everyone uses ebay or likes to touch chemicals they have never heard of.
I can order from Amazon Mike but I am lucky in as much as I can get lab reagents for the same money as pool stuff most of the time, however its useful to mention in threads like this as people get here by google mainly

 

[jpanhalt]

Its used to eat the organics and I think most pipes here are plastic (dont quote that).

Exactly. That is chemelec's point, I think. Plastic pipes are "organic," and hence subject to charring by sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid with or without another oxidizer (such as dichromate) is used to clean glassware. Charring is similar to burning, but without a flame. Anything with an unsaturated C=C bond is susceptible.

An example of using that fact is cleaning up light petroleum ether with concentrated sulfuric acid. The unsaturated organics are charred, leaving the fully saturated hydrocarbons clean after distillation.

John

 

[large_ghostman]

Hey dont blame me I dont sell it! Mine normally comes in plastic bottles like PET. I would need to check but I am unsure what most pipes are made of here, I know its definitely not PVC. Anyway there is the link and I am sure if you go on B&Q website (might be wicks??? ) anyway one of them sells 5 ltr of 98% sulphuric drain opener.
Just for the record we have always had septic tanks and so use rods and not chemicals with stuff like that

EDIT
Just checked and B&Q sell it as one shot drain cleaner, apparently also removes limescale lol, try that in the kettle

I am aware of the Chemistry, I was just stating that battery acid wasnt that common (mostly sealed batteries here) But they have sulphuric acid at >90% as a drain cleaner.
Its a mute point what it does to some plastics or some metals, as its got absolutely nothing to do with me, I just gave the heads up of where people in the UK can get it from

 

[jpanhalt]

If the pipes are plastic and are not PVC (white), then they are likely ABS (black). In the US, both types exist and use of one over the other is by a completely irrational building code.

John

 

[large_ghostman]

We have Black I think is waste (old house here ours are orange waste ) and new fresh water supply pipes are blue! I am trying to find out what they are made of, but got side tracked! you mentioned cleaning pet ether and I was reading up on it today.

These are a few of the 30 odd chemistry books I have (mainly old as I prefer old books), i have Vogel (3rd ed) and 5th ed, In VOGEL 3rd it says about distilling petrol and then cleaning pet ether with sulphuric acid washes until clear or a light pale yellow. So while according to VOGEL distilling petrol carefully with a flame is ok, he also gives a synth for making Diethyl ether. However he states that it isnt suitable for a beginner and pet ether should be used lol.
I can just see that kind of advice in one of my modern school books .
I am aware petrol is different today but it still has Hexanes, and n-Hexane cost a kidney so I was looking up the boiling point and seeing what he had to say on distilling it off. fantastic book for that kind of stuff, i actually prefer the third edition to the filth. Anyway back to finding out what the blue pipes are made of

 

[large_ghostman]

ITS MDPE for fresh water ABS for waste but also PVC was used in the past and still is inside for some things except drinking water.
Interesting according to this
https://www.plasticsintl.com/plastics_chemical_resistence_chart.html

ABS is partly attacked at low concentration of sulphuric acid, however NO DATA for higher concentrations. o now I got to go look at the orange stuff!

That explains it! The older more common orange waste water pipes are PVC so not attacked by sulphuric acid

 

[jpanhalt]

Vogel is very good as a chemistry text. I used Noller (Stanford University). I like Noller, because it gave more background about why something mattered, but Vogel is probably the better.

Both ABS and PVC are fine plumbing for modern houses. The problem(s) happen when you try to mix them in the same system.

John