Help with Water Pump

[salty joe]

Hello all. My name is Joe Norris and I live in N E Oh. Is this a place that I could get help building a circiut to rapidly turn a 24V, 30W DC water pump on and off? I have no electronics training, but have learned the basic symbols and how to read a basic schematic. In return I would be more than willing to help with remodeling problems by email or phone or if in the area with my hammer. I have been at it long enough to have learned an old timer trick or two...

 

[Boncuk]

Hi Joe,

some more details would be much appreciated for your project.

Doing it right with a relatively poor description won't suffice - and I hate doing things twice.

What will be used (sensors, switches, float switches) to turn on and off the pump?

For the supply power of the pump: Will it be battery or power supply operated? If battery operated, what kind of battery will you use? (e.g. SLA-battery)

Should it be trickle charged at any time to have unlimited power available whenever it's needed?

Regards

Boncuk

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Joe

More details as Boncuk mentioned would help. I am sure something could be developed.

Remodeling?

Maybe we could talk as I'll be in the market for some quotes soon.

Ron

 

[4pyros]

rapidly turn a 24V, 30W DC water pump on and off?

How fast? Water pumps are relatively slow. Can you leave the pump on and switch the flow?

 

[salty joe]

How fast? Water pumps are relatively slow. Can you leave the pump on and switch the flow?

I don't think so for this application.

Hi Joe,

some more details would be much appreciated for your project.

Doing it right with a relatively poor description won't suffice - and I hate doing things twice.
Me too.
What will be used (sensors, switches, float switches) to turn on and off the pump?
I'd like to do this with a controller.
For the supply power of the pump: Will it be battery or power supply operated? If battery operated, what kind of battery will you use? (e.g. SLA-battery)
Plugged into a wall receptacle.
Should it be trickle charged at any time to have unlimited power available whenever it's needed?
Hey, some kind of battery backup would be outstanding if it would kick on at a power outage!
Regards

Boncuk

Hi Joe

More details as Boncuk mentioned would help. I am sure something could be developed.

Remodeling?

Maybe we could talk as I'll be in the market for some quotes soon.
Shoot me an email-I'll help any way I can.Ron

Thanks for the replies. The label on the pumps say 24V, 1.3A, 30W. Shouldn't that be 31.2W? Anyway, I'd like to have a controller that will control two pumps to turn them both on and off simultaniusly, while giving me the ability to adjust the run time and the ability to adjust the not run time. A scheme of about 30 second run time and 5-10 second not run time should do the trick.

This is to create random flow in a reef tank. I envision using two controllers to run four pumps. The controllers will be independent of one another, so they will not be synchronised creating the random flow. Does this seem like a doable project?

Joe

 

[salty joe]

Sorry for getting my replies all mixed up with your quotes.

 

[ronsimpson]

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/01/CR_DS.pdf I found this at digikey.com
This relay has two knobs on it. The pump will be on for the time set by one know and off for the time set by the other knob.
The relay runs from 24VDC or a different version runs at 120VAC. Pins 2 and 7 need power.
The contacts (switch) can handle 10 amps. Use pins 1-3, or 1-5 to control power to the pumps.
Use the 0.6 to 60 second version or the 0.3 to 30 second version.

 

[Reloadron]

It is very doable You have 4 pumps that run on 24 VDC and draw about 1.3 amps each and yes that would be about 31.2 watts but what a pump really draws would be a function of how much work it is doing. You want to run two pumps per controller using two independent controllers. Pumps on about 30 seconds and pumps off about 5 to 10 seconds. Timing could be done using a 555 timer chip configured to drive the relays used to switch the pump(s) on and off. There is a good number of ways to go about this depending on budget and how fancy you want it to be.

I was also serious about home remodeling. Looking at some major projects including ripping out and replacing walls. I am great at demolition and doing all the electric but suck at and hate drywall work. I am in Bedford Heights in the SE Cleveland suburbs.

Ron

 

[salty joe]

It is very doable You have 4 pumps that run on 24 VDC and draw about 1.3 amps each and yes that would be about 31.2 watts but what a pump really draws would be a function of how much work it is doing. You want to run two pumps per controller using two independent controllers. Pumps on about 30 seconds and pumps off about 5 to 10 seconds. Timing could be done using a 555 timer chip configured to drive the relays used to switch the pump(s) on and off. There is a good number of ways to go about this depending on budget and how fancy you want it to be.

I was also serious about home remodeling. Looking at some major projects including ripping out and replacing walls. I am great at demolition and doing all the electric but suck at and hate drywall work. I am in Bedford Heights in the SE Cleveland suburbs.

Ron

I don't need fancy, but I do need dependable. Speaking of budget, I got a price for a 555 a little while ago & almost fell out of my chair. All I can say is that must be the magic of capitolism.

PM sent.

 

[salty joe]

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/01/CR_DS.pdf I found this at digikey.com
This relay has two knobs on it. The pump will be on for the time set by one know and off for the time set by the other knob.
The relay runs from 24VDC or a different version runs at 120VAC. Pins 2 and 7 need power.
The contacts (switch) can handle 10 amps. Use pins 1-3, or 1-5 to control power to the pumps.
Use the 0.6 to 60 second version or the 0.3 to 30 second version.

Thanks, this thing looks really interesting. Would I only need a 24V, at least 4A wall wart transformer to feed the relay and the relay would turn the pumps on & off & I'd be done? I'll find out what this cost tommorrow.

 

[colin55]

Here's 2 circuits for 2 pumps. You can control each pump separately. The chip has 6 gates. **broken link removed**

 

[Boncuk]

How fast? Water pumps are relatively slow. Can you leave the pump on and switch the flow?

Switching the flow of a water pump is almost the same as turning on an air compressor against the reservoir pressure. It won't simply start (except for motor humming) - and that's why pressure relief valves are used for compressors.

All pumps are supposed to start with zero or very low pressure at their output port. So a water pump should be fitted with an air filled reservoir building up air pressure by pumping water against a diaphragm. If there is no pressure reservoir available the water should be able to flow freely from the pump outlet at any time.

Boncuk

 

[Reloadron]

Just as a channel check and looking at this:

Thanks for the replies. The label on the pumps say 24V, 1.3A, 30W. Shouldn't that be 31.2W? Anyway, I'd like to have a controller that will control two pumps to turn them both on and off simultaniusly, while giving me the ability to adjust the run time and the ability to adjust the not run time. A scheme of about 30 second run time and 5-10 second not run time should do the trick.

This is to create random flow in a reef tank. I envision using two controllers to run four pumps. The controllers will be independent of one another, so they will not be synchronised creating the random flow. Does this seem like a doable project?

OK the pumps are 24 VDC pumps and I think I figured out a "reef tank" is a salt water aquarium? So these pumps are really relatively small pumps that circulate water, maybe make nice visual effects?

The OP seems to want about 30 seconds run time and about 5 to 10 seconds not run time so something like 30 seconds on and 10 seconds off with the Pulse Width being adjustable. If we say 30 seconds on and 10 seconds off that becomes a 40 second PRT with a 75% duty cycle as I see it.

Early on the term "random" was used and that is where I get lost. Making 30 on and 10 off for each pair of pumps is not a big problem. Sequencing things adds to the circuits. I mean can both pump circuits be on at the same time? Looking at 30 On and 10 Off they would have to be?

Finally and I am far from a PIC guru I can't help but wonder if a single little 8 pin uC couldn't do all of this? If for example the first pair of pumps started followed by 15 seconds the second pair of pumps starting. While without getting complex and allowing changes to on off times easily but a simple redundant scheme could be worked in. Relays could be dropped for MOSFETS pretty easily too.

Colin's circuits I am not sure about with the values shown?

Ron

 

[ronsimpson]

Thanks, this thing looks really interesting. Would I only need a 24V, at least 4A wall wart transformer to feed the relay and the relay would turn the pumps on & off & I'd be done? I'll find out what this cost tommorrow.

Yes, the relay needs 24V to power the timer. Then you run the 24V through the relay switch to the pump. You can get a socket for the relay, a socket with screw driver connections. No soldering needed.

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Ron, I looked at your link and agree it would be a good solution, however, Digi Key shows a unit price of about $470 per unit and I assume something is wrong? The same part at Mouser is $369 per copy and Newark shows $337. Timing relays are pretty common and I have used plenty of the Macromatic line. That led me to these versions. If we scroll down the page we will find the model 24V AC/DC TR-63128 and the 24V AC/DC TR-65128 the difference being if it starts with on time or off time in a repeat cycle. These run about $65 each through Allied Electronics. That makes more sense than the Tyco versions formerly Potter & Brumfield and now actually TE Connectivity I think?

If the OP wants to go that route for less than about $140 for a pair it's not a bad way to go and I'll send him the sockets as he is local and I have a pile of sockets. Not sure how to get one to lead or lag the other beyond turning one on and then about 15 sec later starting the second one?

Ron

 

[ronsimpson]

Wow the price is high!
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/01/hdfaPDF.pdf
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot260.nsf/veritydisplay/1e1e37b95ee650698525709f0052aae9/$file/tdr01a01.pdf
https://www.clrwtr.com/SSAC-Recycling-Timers.htm
I am too tired to think now but I think there is a way to make two delay relays work.

 

[()blivion]

Is the OP gone? I'm board so I'll throw in my two cents.

@Reloadron
I believe your correct about what the OP is doing, this is for a saltwater reef aquarium. As I understand it they have extremely stringent requirements for the water. The pumps are likely necessary to keep the fish and coral from dieing as they need constant agitation like a real reef would be doing. The "random" part is probably do to the nature of coral reef turbulence being unpredictable. I think the different pumps need to NOT be synchronized with each other. And ideally the duty cycles would vary a bit over time. More information about water requirements can be obtained from the reef aquarium Wikipedia entry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reef_aquarium

To the OP, "Salty Joe"
For your needs, as Reloadron suggests, the NE555-NE558 timer IC or similar combined with relays or heavy transistors is prolly your best bet. They are simple, cheep, popular, and easy to solder. Also you don't need a programer for a microcontroller and you won't likely need a full PCB, you can just "point-to-point" or "bird's nest" it all together. All this will allow you to salvage more of the needed parts and spend less, you shouldn't need to spend over $50 total to do what you want IMO.

The 555 timer IC and it's derivatives are a classic part that is kept well in the hearts of many EE types, so most people here would be more than happy to design the circuit for you and then help you with building it step by step if you choose to use this method.

Incidentally, Colin55's circuit in post #11 is actually not a bad choice either. With that you would get ~6 "pumps" per chip if you used the right part number. Schmitt trigger inverters are also more common to salvage than the 555 is (unfortunately). It would otherwise be basically the same parts and construction as the 555 method. Nice circuit Colin.

Best of luck.

 

[ronsimpson]

Here is a standard relay and two timer ICs. Price=?
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2012/01/dc88a2cd354e4ff60771f19e5be5e247.pdf

 

[ronsimpson]

If this link does not work then search ebay.com for TDR4A11 Recycling TDR Digi-Set Time Delay Relay $39.95
**broken link removed**

Also found "Programmable Double Time Delay Relay ATDV-Y" for $24.00 and "NEW DAYTON 1A368M TIME DELAY RELAY" $35.00
"Macromatic SS-65122 Solid State Time Delay Relay " $80.
**broken link removed**

Here are some options.

 

[alec_t]

Here's a variation on Colin55's circuit. It uses MOSFETs instead of relays to switch the pumps on/off in two pairs, and includes a 7812 voltage regulator to give a 12V supply for the timing circuit.