Getting a generator to sync to 50Hz

[tcmtech]

I have no idea what it was used for, but I would guess its spent time in a fishing boat. I might try and get a governor but its reaching the point I am going to walk away.

I asked for £11 for a gasket kit and got asked if I could make them instead! Yeah I can make them but why spend hours of my time doing that for some else when you can buy them cheap.

Offered £300 for the engine and generator and said I was going to call it a day after the weekend, I also dont like the situation of the mains going down and the generator still being connected, I mentioned this a few times and no one seems that bothered about it. IF something did go wrong and the guy working on the line got a belt then its me and not the owner thats going to get trouble.

They have a tiny solar installation thats grid connected and I think they want to connect it to the meter and get the feed in tariff, its been denied but I dont want anything to do with that. I will look at mechanical governors for when I get my own generator, I am also after a lister

Given that I suspect these people are either dirt poor or irrationally cheap and have near zero working knowledge of what it is they are wanting to actually do let alone the ramifications of what will be involved when it goes wrong.

Things I see that are obvious concerns is '

1: Can their electrical service even handle a 32 KVA genset feeding back?

2: Will their utility meter even let them measure their back fed power?

3: If they did feedback at any measurable rate what will the utility company pay them for it?

4: Do they have any realistic estimations for how much fuel and costs to process that fuel it will take to just break even on the project?

5: If they have already been shot down by the utility on doing a DIY cogen system what exactly do they plan to gain from this?

Now as for the utility workers getting killed I wouldn't worry about it. They have the proper monitoring and safety procedures to handle their side of things safely regardless of what one of the their idiot customers may be doing with a home genset. Around here before any utility worker any work on a line bare handed it's confirmed by multiple people that it it dead on both sides of where the work is to be done and the live wire is solidly bonded to the system common and earth grounds on both sides of the work location as well.

Personally at this point I would just pull the plug on the whole project and tell them what exactly it will cost to have you set the genset up to work properly and leave it at that.
Get paid for what you have done and give them a solid quote (with a good deal of padding on your end) and a offer on the whole rig should they decide to sell it then walk away.

If the cleaver guy who loves working on this sort of things tells them to stuff it because they are being too cheap and unrealistic it's very unlikely they will find anyone else who will work on it for them either.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

4: Do they have any realistic estimations for how much fuel and costs to process that fuel it will take to just break even on the project?

You haven't seen what fuel costs over here

You're never going to break even when it's costing you more to generate than you get paid.

 

[tcmtech]

You haven't seen what fuel costs over here

You're never going to break even when it's costing you more to generate than you get paid.

That was the whole point behind that suggestion. Have they done even the most basic math to compare operating cost to dreampt of profit or avoided losses?

Where I live I can legally cogenerate and at 11 cents a KWH I can do slightly better than break even on cogeneration for my place being I have loads of used oil for fuel that I get for free that only needs a single pass through a 50 micron filter to be able to run in my single cylinder Petter Diesel.

Still at that I don't bother because as I said it's still so close to break even comparing engine life and cost Vs just buying the electricity from the utility. Sure it could save me ~ $1 a day on electricity but then I have to have this little air cooled diesel sitting someplace clattering away 24 hours a day.

Now if it was liquid cooled and I could tie it into my boiler system and use the excess engine and exhaust heat for heating the place in the winter heck yea I would be far more inclined to set things up that way but for now I have yet to acquire any small liquid cooled diesels that weren't worn out junk to begin with.

 

[dr pepper]

I agree with you tcm, there are times where I'd rather have something you can fix with a leatherman instead of a laptop and a degree in bumf.
Petter diesels are very heavy lumps, but they thump away day and night, I read somewhere they need a timing chain once every 50 years.

 

[Inquisitive]

Hmmm. A client asks you to make a determination of a problem. You make a diagnosis. Your assessment and the clients are at odds. They asked you to fix it. You think or know from your determination that its not cost effective to spend your labor, or make parts/materials or your research time. They don't want to spend what it takes to do it right.

I'd cut my losses and walk away. Job done. You did the best you could with the hand dealt. Chalk it up to experience. If they are so confident in how to solve it. Let them have at it. When they finally come to the realization that perhaps you are right they may come back begging for your insight.

Just an opinion.

 

[large_ghostman]

wow loads of stuff!

First off the fuel, They are buying it cheap from me, that is kind of why I got involved. They pay 32p ltr for the diesel which is dead cheap (my bio fuel). They have a small wind turbine that has a feed in tariff and wanted me to connect to this, I am uncomfortable doing this as its not what you would call legal.

I have put alot of time in on it and paid for the materials upfront , I wont do that again! I am going to walk away as they have the money to do it but wont spend it.

The info on line workers is really handy I will keep that in mind for the future.

Nigel we have a petrol 2.5Kw gen set here, we run the lights from it (energy savers) and the TV. Our kettle is also off limits lol

I didnt think about a relay and another fuse box! I like that idea alot as the genset is a key one, so it could be automated, the downside is petrol cost! that and the fact it has 10 gallon of dead fuel it , I tried starting it and no go. So I am going to have to drain the tank and use the fuel for something else.

I will loose money on the job I was doing but to be honest I have had enough, its the same people with the wind turbine I was doing and I am still waiting to get paid for that!! I have the control codes though so its pay up time or its switched off.

Thanks alot guys although this turned into a bust there is alot of info for when I finally get my diesel genset, they are cheap at the moment but that wont last. Ideally I want 2 one small one and one that can power the house and work shop, fuel isnt a problem as I can make plenty of biofuel. After 1200 ltr you are ment to pay 11p tax for gen fuel or 55p ltr for car fuel, I only make gen fuel .

it costs around 19p ltr to make the fuel as I dont pay anything for the raw material, actually I get paid to take it. Not much but enough to make me smile while I convert it lol

Thanks again its really useful info

 

[dr pepper]

Watch out for the tax people ghostie, if said liquid stuff is used for road or any kind of propulsion they will get really upset about taxes, it may be ok for generating power but still maybe not something to talk about on a forum.

 

[large_ghostman]

there is a strange court case going on at the moment, someone uses waste motor for heating and the government want 11p ltr for duty on it. BUT the argument is the duty was paid on the oil the first time so if the oil is just filtered and then burnt in a furnace no further tax should be due.

I am watching this carefully , the fuel duty is 11p for heating fuel or red off road fuel and 55p for normal road fuel, on top of that you might have VAT unless you under the threshold.

No tax if you make under 1200 ltr a year. I did try and register for tax for the bio fuel, the form asked approx production so I took a wild guess and said 3000 ltr. I got a letter back saying no duty would be payable???? I guess they think it isnt worth the hassle as they cutting customs and excise staff.

 

[dr pepper]

Fair enough sounds like you understand the rules a lot better than me.
When you buy marine diesel you have to declare how much is for heat&light and how much is for propulsion, and tax is diffo for both, daft.

 

[large_ghostman]

Fair enough sounds like you understand the rules a lot better than me.
When you buy marine diesel you have to declare how much is for heat&light and how much is for propulsion, and tax is diffo for both, daft.

Ah thats not duty, the difference with marine is some is a different VAT rating, the duty is 11p on both but the vat rating is different hence why you declare what its for. Its a mad situation

Technically heat should have 0 Vat rating, I dont know the VAT on the different things as I am not VAT declaring this year. Or rather I might not be!

The entire tax system is utterly messed up at the moment

 

[shortbus=]

The entire tax system is utterly messed up at the moment

That's why we in the 'colonies' revolted and left. And then we got what we have today.

 

[dr pepper]

Agreed with both of you.
We are hammered with tax in the uk, petrol (gas) is $10 a gallon.
I just bought a diesel car, now both me and the mrs drive oil burning tanks.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I just bought a diesel car, now both me and the mrs drive oil burning tanks.

Tut, tut - pollution causers!

 

[dr pepper]

The mrs's might be, mine int, its a ultra low emission cheap tax job.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

The mrs's might be, mine int, its a ultra low emission cheap tax job.

That's what Volkswagon claimed

 

[dr pepper]

I never owned a vw.
The engine management system they used was diffrent to everyone else's, that was their biggest downfall.

 

[Mikebits]

What downfall, the VW bug was one of the most popular cars sold worldwide. To this day you can still see the original Bugs everywhere. Ugly, and not the way I roll, but apparently other people like them. I recall a friend who's wife owned a Bug, my friend was a rather big guy and he often pulled the engine by himself (no machine equipment) to make repairs. The ease of maintenance was one of the reasons this car was so popular, so I heard...

 

[dr pepper]

Ecu's and emmsions not an issue with the dub, it had coil and points and a carb.
You could pull the engine with a trolley jack.
I like the car, but not the engine, its knocking on a 100 year old design.