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CO2 capture and p[roduction for AD. Where electronics come in

Western

Member
Wow, that's a lot to take in. I won't say I understand it all by a long shot ... but bits and pieces sound very interesting. I'll have another read in the morning and Google some of the concepts.

I spent a lot of time 20 years ago or so messing in the weird science/lunatic fringe ... but have stayed away since ... this sounds right down my alley ... not suggesting this is lunatic fringe mind you. :)
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
erm thx, honestly i am pretty normal i just prefer technical reading and journals to comics. Plus i grew up around labs a farm, it helps that i love to learn and i enjoy everything i call work.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Wow, that's a lot to take in. I won't say I understand it all by a long shot ... but bits and pieces sound very interesting. I'll have another read in the morning and Google some of the concepts.

I spent a lot of time 20 years ago or so messing in the weird science/lunatic fringe ... but have stayed away since ... this sounds right down my alley ... not suggesting this is lunatic fringe mind you. :)
Our main site for energy technology is being swapped from server to another one. Once its back online i will pm the link, that site is public and the blog part is aimed at the general public in places. Its useful to know when people dont fully understand, i will make sure one site caters for those not actually in the industry. Its important as many people as possible understand the technology or it wont get taken up.
 

Western

Member
erm thx, honestly i am pretty normal i just prefer technical reading and journals to comics.
Haha ... I wasn't suggesting any different. I've enjoyed your contribution to the forum as I check out the various threads. Plus it's fantastic to see someone from the younger generation with some get up and go and obvious flair for their work and interests.


Plus i grew up around labs a farm, it helps that i love to learn and i enjoy everything i call work.
No labs for me growing up ... but we were on a farm and my dad was into motorcycles. It's amazing the skills and interests you can pick up growing up in that environment. I feel sad for kids who grow up with none of that.


Our main site for energy technology is being swapped from server to another one. Once its back online i will pm the link, that site is public and the blog part is aimed at the general public in places. Its useful to know when people dont fully understand, i will make sure one site caters for those not actually in the industry. Its important as many people as possible understand the technology or it wont get taken up.
That's where I need to start from ... at least until I grasp the bigger picture. I had researched some of your links from other threads ... but with so much theory I was having a hard time trying to relate it to something I could get involved in.

We're on 4 and a half acres and in a house that hopefully we'll be in for the duration ... so I'm keen to do some experimenting with some alternative technology in the way of energy saving and environmentally responsible living.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
The basic technology is old and well understood, until extremely recently no one in the western world has paid much attention to it. India on the other hand uses it a great deal in its most basic form, common industry belief is Germany is the world leaders in it. This is wrong however, Both Bulgaria and Hungry have some of the best techniques but not the money to utilize it.

Most the big companies have become fixed on single batch systems, so much so they would find it hard to adapt to a sudden change. Then a short while back things did suddenly change, in the beginning it wasnt about producing more power, the focus was on fixing a few other issues like poor grass performance and high nitrates. Several small groups and a uni got together, we had worked on another problem the year before as a group.

Long story short we developed a artificial cow, most people assume most methane in cows comes from the back end. This is in fact untrue, cows belch way more methane than any other way. So armed with this we set about developing a continuous closed loop zero waste system. Each working on different aspects, but no one wanted the technology as all the money went into solar and wind. a few of us stuck it out and kept going, then at the end of last year at a Scottish Government energy planning meeting a couple of things happened.

I got invited by the guy in charge of energy policy for out authority, i had been looking after some community wind turbines for him. He was aware i had done alot of stuff on bio reactors and wanted me to go with him to put the Authority plan forward, he wanted something different and something to cut nitrate waste, i explained we could do way more than that. So at the meeting all these smart energy guys were discussing policy and i mentioned bio methane reactors.

The general opinion was they were inefficient and not worth bothering with, all the data presented was 15 - 20 years old. I showed them all our data and outlined the system. It was taken ok but not much got said, then after Christmas i got a call asking if i could put a plan together for a simulation of a full scale closed loop system for a small town (15,000 people). We did this sim and outlined everything, we got bombarded with questions and all the old arguments against these systems were raised.

I explained each part and how it was possible to overcome the problems, dont get me wrong the last system we built full scale was called the ADMK5, but it had a couple of small flaws to it, nothing major and way better than most on the market. We are now working on the next generation, hopefully in the next few months our new system (lab scale) will prove we just about have all the wrinkles sorted. Actually its thrown up another plus side and a few extra tricks, suddenly alot of people are interested because cheap clean energy and heat is almost just a side bonus to where the real money is with this newer system. It also solves some other target problems they have.

So this year Digesters that combine heat and power over a certain efficiency, are now eligible for the second highest RHI (its a kind of grant scheme) rate. So its really taking off, but alot of the main players are still a bit baffled how we achieve our figures and efficiency, turns out not to be rocker science. We expected to get called out as OU types or HHO type idiots, so we prepared and had the figures independently verified before we put them forward. And that brings you upto date pretty much.

The posts on the bio reactor control system the other month, are all to do with this next test we are doing to confirm our last batch of figures and add in the cheery on the cake. From here its a bit tricky, alot of pressure to publish or patent. But honestly i think we are not ready for that, if we gave the whole thing away the bigger guys with cash and clout would take us out, so for now we plan to build a full scale unit and get the Local Authority contract. Plus a few other people have shown interest for some large scale stuff if it works out. This however is our weak area, dealing with the actual business side and keeping our advantage, while at the same time getting our tech out there.

The science and tech side i have covered, the more tricky politics side and business side is not my thing, i got a business partner who is good. But at the moment we dont know exactly what we are up against or how to protect it. I would like to do what another team did, they crowd funded and raised loads for a system thats not that great. But crowd funding means we could well loose control of the tech, so we sticking with Local authorities and some of the potentially larger clients for now, how we fund a large system isnt clear at the moment, but i am not going to rush into deals i regret later.

Besides i am not ready to give up my soap yet :D.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Haha ... I wasn't suggesting any different. I've enjoyed your contribution to the forum as I check out the various threads. Plus it's fantastic to see someone from the younger generation with some get up and go and obvious flair for their work and interests.




No labs for me growing up ... but we were on a farm and my dad was into motorcycles. It's amazing the skills and interests you can pick up growing up in that environment. I feel sad for kids who grow up with none of that.




That's where I need to start from ... at least until I grasp the bigger picture. I had researched some of your links from other threads ... but with so much theory I was having a hard time trying to relate it to something I could get involved in.

We're on 4 and a half acres and in a house that hopefully we'll be in for the duration ... so I'm keen to do some experimenting with some alternative technology in the way of energy saving and environmentally responsible living.
The direct answer to this unlike above, a modified version of what we use at home would serve you well. Also give you a great start point.
 

Western

Member
a modified version of what we use at home would serve you well. Also give you a great start point.
Your previous reply helped fill in a lot of blanks and also raised a lot of other ideas for me to follow up and consider ... but this sounds like something I could get my teeth into. Please tell me more. :)


Long story short we developed a artificial cow, most people assume most methane in cows comes from the back end. This is in fact untrue, cows belch way more methane than any other way. So armed with this we set about developing a continuous closed loop zero waste system.
Sounds very interesting to me. Even though I am full time in the electronics repair field ... it is solely in the dairy industry ... so I have a lot of contacts in dairy.

I have previously talked with a close friend who has a large dairy, about collecting methane from their ponds and he had already been researching it ... but that was a while ago now. I'll have to ask him again.


It was funny you said ...
for a small town (15,000 people)
I live in a "rural city" haha ... and it has ~18,000 people. I probably would call it a large country town (by Australian standards) ... certainly not a city.

Reading the rest of your post, I think I need to contact one of my nephews who's in uni at present ... this may well be something that he could be interested in. He grew up on the family farm when my brother took it over from our parents.


The science and tech side i have covered, the more tricky politics side and business side is not my thing, i got a business partner who is good. But at the moment we don

t know exactly what we are up against or how to protect it.
Yes, it's a pretty cut throat world out there, I don't envy your position at all ... but don't give up, keep at it.

I have another friend who has invented a pump for the food industry ... and has built some full scale working examples ... but he is paralysed by the fear of someone stealing his idea ... so it sits there going nowhere. Sad really.


We expected to get called out as OU types or HHO type idiots,
Haha ... hence my comment earlier about my involvement in the weird science/lunatic fringe. There's absolutely no question in my mind that science today can not explain some things ... and some that I have personally seen or experienced ... the sad part is that the crazies ruin it for everyone ... so everyone is tarred with the same brush.

I met up with Joe Booker (of "Joe Cell" fame) several times ... that was the forerunner of todays HHO systems. He is one 'very interesting' character indeed!!
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
well i better declare my HHO views, you cant break physicals laws, I use HHO type cells to produce clean hydrogen. I wouldnt put it in a car if i made it from the car, it dosnt work like that. Thermodynamics is b itch, but if people who made these cells stopped and thought for a min then other possibilities spring up. Nothing to do with cars but add sodium hydroxide to the anode side of a split cell with a nickel anode and add water to the cathode side, you cut the losses.

But then you have the problem of hydrogen, i did a post a day or so ago about hydrogen being extremely hard to contain, but if you had cheap or excess power then you can do something else with hydrogen. Electrolysis in a single cells just starts forming water, the other downer with it being just about all the HHO guys make the same mistake, wrong anode material, wrong electrolyte, too much voltage and most are over current.

If you look at various metals and anode materials, you find that they all have a optimum amount of current per centimeter square. Go over that current and you start to waste massive amounts of power, its easy enough to prove yourself. The conference i went too had some HHO guys, i have a bet on with them for next year. I have bet them i can produce at least 25% more hydrogen and oxygen with 1.6V and use half the volume of electrolyte and 10% of the total plate area they use.

See Hydrogen is important in bio methane, microbes take it and combine it with CO2 to make methane. you could take hydrogen and co2 and heat to 200-400 C over a nickel or ruthium catalyst and you get Methane. the ratio is 2:1 in theory but in practice you use 6:4.

Also keep in mind with dairy herds you need to co digest, dairy slurry on its own will kill a reactor in 18 days. For us it isnt about not releasing what we have discovered, all we need to do is keep a lid on it and be first with a large scale. Its called the hoover effect. Most people in the UK call a vac cleaner a hoover, hoover is actually just a brand and not the name of the device. Be first and be big then patent it.

Depends what you call fringe science, like i said HHO in cars dosnt work. Whats sad however is these guys who build really nice cells, could make something useful if they used real science. Same with over unity stuff, nothing we do breaks any laws. What we are good at is problem solving and thinking outside the box, we see waste as a resource, thats half the battle
 

Western

Member
well i better declare my HHO views, you cant break physicals laws,
I agree with you there.

... but I have a question. Do you/we know all the physical laws?


Not trying to be a smart alec here ... but somehow I don't think as a human race, that we know all there is to know yet.

I think we are going to continue to advance our knowledge like we have for centuries ... but at an accelerated rate ... and guys like you are going to be at the forefront.


the other downer with it being just about all the HHO guys make the same mistake, wrong anode material, wrong electrolyte, too much voltage and most are over current.
I have no idea what is the 'correct' method of building a HHO cell ... but I do know that Joe started off trying to run his car on steam!

He told me he'd been hit by a semi trailer, had a near death experience and spent months in hospital. While recovering he had no money, so spent his time trying to figure out a way to run his car cheaply.

Then he had some sort of result that eventually led him to use just stainless steel and spring water ... absolutely no catalyst at all.

He was very clear in saying the energy produced was not hydrogen ... though early on that's what he thought was being produced.


The conference i went too had some HHO guys, i have a bet on with them for next year. I have bet them i can produce at least 25% more hydrogen and oxygen with 1.6V and use half the volume of electrolyte and 10% of the total plate area they use.
For the record, I reckon you could give them 10 years ... and your money would still be safe. :)


Most people in the UK call a vac cleaner a hoover, hoover is actually just a brand and not the name of the device. Be first and be big then patent it.
Yes .. I have been trying to get that message across to my friend with the food pump.


Depends what you call fringe science, like i said HHO in cars dosnt work. Whats sad however is these guys who build really nice cells, could make something useful if they used real science. Same with over unity stuff,
Have to agree there.


Same with over unity stuff, nothing we do breaks any laws.
That is a little sad to read ... so if you do happen to stumble across something that doesn't fit within the 'laws' ... you're going to break your neck to prove your results wrong just to keep them within the laws. What if you've made a real discovery? :)
 

camerart

Active Member
Hi,
I've surprised mysefl by reading all of this, as I don't read much usually, but it is interesting.

I've dealt a little with Hydrogen, and wouldn't discount it from being used in vehicles. Beware however, that as Hydrogen moves through an orific, it generates current and is liable to spark, so look into earthing. If liquid Hydrogen is put into a vehicle, it would need a high vacuum vessel, which would vent off continuously. This vent gas could charge a battery if the vehicle isn't being used at the time.
C.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Hi,
I've surprised mysefl by reading all of this, as I don't read much usually, but it is interesting.

I've dealt a little with Hydrogen, and wouldn't discount it from being used in vehicles. Beware however, that as Hydrogen moves through an orific, it generates current and is liable to spark, so look into earthing. If liquid Hydrogen is put into a vehicle, it would need a high vacuum vessel, which would vent off continuously. This vent gas could charge a battery if the vehicle isn't being used at the time.
C.
No sorry you got wrong end of the stick, I didnt say hydrogen in cars not being used, i was talking HHO. Hydrogen as a fuel in a cell is different. Burning hydrogen as a fuel in a car isnt going to happen (likely not to anyway), its simply a bear to stop it it getting through most materials. Even Hydrogen tanks (the cylinders) slowly leak!

Breaking Laws is ok depending on the law, but thermo dynamic laws are free lunch laws. Besides even if we didnt have the laws of thermodynamics there is so many other reasons that HHO cells wouldnt work. I do use electrolysis for small amounts of hydrogen, you can make it alot easier than some of the cells they make!.
Simple fact if your using plain water then Graphite cant be beaten for efficiency, if you want really good amounts then sodium Hydroxide around 2M is the goto electrolyte, which means you need a metal that ignores even molten hydroxide, hence Nickel as we melt sodium hydroxide in the lab in Nickel crucibles.

So i am not closed minded, but some things just aint going to happen.

Sorry Camerart about the Hydrogen and car confusion, the main issue at the moment is a materials chemistry issue. More research into catalysts for hydrogen cells is needed. But you still got the problem of keeping the stuff in!! If you think about it, the Hydrogen atom is by far the smallest atom, even the next smallest is twice as big.... so anything you make is going to have holes small enough for it to get through, unless you could make a solid a solid hydrogen container :D.

I do have a neighbor with a wallet that i often if it keep Hydrogen trapped in it, not much else ever seems to come out of it...... Still owes me £10 for cleaning his tractor 4 years ago! well £16 with interest
 

cowboybob

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
As always, LG, fascinating stuff.
... I do have a neighbor with a wallet that i often if it keep Hydrogen trapped in it, not much else ever seems to come out of it...... Still owes me £10 for cleaning his tractor 4 years ago! well £16 with interest
(Chortle) Around here we refer to those types as being "Tight as a tick... " :banghead:.
 

camerart

Active Member
No sorry you got wrong end of the stick, I didnt say hydrogen in cars not being used, i was talking HHO. Hydrogen as a fuel in a cell is different. Burning hydrogen as a fuel in a car isnt going to happen (likely not to anyway), its simply a bear to stop it it getting through most materials. Even Hydrogen tanks (the cylinders) slowly leak!

Breaking Laws is ok depending on the law, but thermo dynamic laws are free lunch laws. Besides even if we didnt have the laws of thermodynamics there is so many other reasons that HHO cells wouldnt work. I do use electrolysis for small amounts of hydrogen, you can make it alot easier than some of the cells they make!.
Simple fact if your using plain water then Graphite cant be beaten for efficiency, if you want really good amounts then sodium Hydroxide around 2M is the goto electrolyte, which means you need a metal that ignores even molten hydroxide, hence Nickel as we melt sodium hydroxide in the lab in Nickel crucibles.

So i am not closed minded, but some things just aint going to happen.

Sorry Camerart about the Hydrogen and car confusion, the main issue at the moment is a materials chemistry issue. More research into catalysts for hydrogen cells is needed. But you still got the problem of keeping the stuff in!! If you think about it, the Hydrogen atom is by far the smallest atom, even the next smallest is twice as big.... so anything you make is going to have holes small enough for it to get through, unless you could make a solid a solid hydrogen container :D.

I do have a neighbor with a wallet that i often if it keep Hydrogen trapped in it, not much else ever seems to come out of it...... Still owes me £10 for cleaning his tractor 4 years ago! well £16 with interest
Hi L,
I mainly wanted you to be aware of the spark problem, if you didn't already know, then thought I would waffle on a bit:angelic:

Actually, I wasn't talking about burning Hydrogen, I was thinking about adding Hydrogen to the Oxygen in the air, to make electric for electric vehicles.

I was always surprised, that Hydrogen leaks through those steel cylinders.

Thinking about leakage! If the vehicle used liquid Hydrogen, in a vacuum chamber (which is venting off producing electricity) also leaking into a chamber between the container and the vacuum, which is the air intake to the vehicle, any leakage would be used. I haven't thought it through, so perhaps more waffle.
C.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Hi L,
I mainly wanted you to be aware of the spark problem, if you didn't already know, then thought I would waffle on a bit:angelic:

Actually, I wasn't talking about burning Hydrogen, I was thinking about adding Hydrogen to the Oxygen in the air, to make electric for electric vehicles.

I was always surprised, that Hydrogen leaks through those steel cylinders.

Thinking about leakage! If the vehicle used liquid Hydrogen, in a vacuum chamber (which is venting off producing electricity) also leaking into a chamber between the container and the vacuum, which is the air intake to the vehicle, any leakage would be used. I haven't thought it through, so perhaps more waffle.
C.
Liquid Hydrogen is different again, its in its second lowest state some not so hard to contain. Making electric is normally done in a fuel cell, much like you point out. The real problem is the output due to inefficient catalysts.

BUT once upon time Hydrogen cells were niche novelties, in the last 2 years money is coming through for the study of them in uni's, Mainly to justify wind turbine power by capturing excess energy and storing it. So maybe 2-3 years might see some advance in catalysts. The main issue upto now has been science, scientists reach for platinum because its likely to work and they get to publish the paper (publish or perish mentality).

Now industry is funding more and uni's are awash with student money, research grants are at a all time high. So bored materials chemists are starting to get about as adventurous as a materials chemist gets (think slug). But main thing is industry looks for results so they fund on a year by year get results basis, this tends to have a profound affect on a research lab. Work actually gets done!

Sorry it sounds like a dig at them, but i use both a uni lab and have my own registered lab. The difference in output is night and day. 2 guys normally in my lab with me as one, 11 researchers in the uni one, they have published 15 papers and are roughly 15% upto the point we are, we have published 2 papers but are way ahead in the research. Ok not peer reviewed but its a process that works so for me i consider working and working well as a win. Published papers however are nice bragging rights but dont get much done, having said that we couldnt of got were we are without scientific papers, so double edged sword for me. Plus i am just not good at writing, i see patterns in reactions and principles, which makes me good at what i do, but putting it on paper...............

P.S i got the wrong end of the stick, i will have a good think about your hydrogen idea. I will post a pic of a special cell we have later tonight. It does the kind of experiment your on about, if you shine shortwave UV at it with a tiny amount of Chlorine in, the potential shoots up.

Down side being you can get a really big bang, the electrodes you will see are pure platinum, the gap between them 0.4mm -1.3mm depending how you set it.
 

camerart

Active Member
Hi L,
You say you will have a good think about my Hydrogen idea, but do it in conjuction with your other ideas, in case it is useful later.

Some time ago I read about membranes that were so fine that they only passed lighter than air gasses through. I think they use a lot of energy though, as with distillation, for gas separation.
C.
 

large_ghostman

Well-Known Member
Most Helpful Member
Hi L,
You say you will have a good think about my Hydrogen idea, but do it in conjuction with your other ideas, in case it is useful later.

Some time ago I read about membranes that were so fine that they only passed lighter than air gasses through. I think they use a lot of energy though, as with distillation, for gas separation.
C.
Those are the opposite to what we need, they are like Reverse osmosis membranes, really you want a ion transfer one, you can get them but seriously expensive! Money will drive where the tech goes :(, Tesla is looking again at the Edison Cell for its cars. But they are burning through there capital really quickly. Plus fighting off the markets trying to short them on the stock.

Just for once i would like the markets to stand back, i have no problem with markets making money, but shorting there stock is 'bad form', Tesla while i dont like them a great deal, at least are investing and researching new ideas. Given a chance i think they could break new ground in some fields, one thing is for sure. The same way Lithium replaced Nickel Cadmium, something will replace Lithium. Alot of money going into everything from Magnesium batteries to looking again at Edison cells.

Its a shame the Edison cell was brought out and then buried in the 70's, nearly50-60 years of progress lost, having played a bit with them recently i honestly think they hold promise for some applications. And alot of the problems they had are now not that hard to get around, still a few to work out however.
 

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